Your views on lace

farm

Fri, Sep 09 2022, 12:31 pm

happysmile1 wrote:

A married woman is supposed to look beautiful in her home only- for her husband only.

She should look clean, dignified, refined etc... outside when in front of other men. But looking beautiful is meant for the home only with her husband.

This is sourced in many places including "Geder Olam" by the Chofetz Chaim.

About the reason for the mitzvah of hair covering it is Torah sourced that its because hair is the main beauty of a woman and after marriage this beauty is supposed to be for her husband only at home. A married woman was commanded to cover and conceal the beauty of hair from other men, her head covering is supposed to lessen her attractiveness to men, not make her look more attractive (which is why so many Rabbanim spoke out against natural and beautifying wigs).

This paragraph written by a Rav who studied the topic in depth might help clarify the point of the head covering:

The Mishna and Gemara in Kesubos (72a-b) and the Rishonim thereon make it abundantly clear that the issue with married women appearing without covered hair while in public is that this would constitute a Tznius violation. That is why the halachic consequence of doing this—in public (not at home—the Gemara is at pains to demarcate where a woman would have to be in order to be in violation)—is that the women forfeits her Kesubah. Just like flirting with young men in the street (Kesubos 72b) would constitute an attack on the integrity of the marriage, and cannot be considered a woman’s personal violation, as (for example) eating non-kosher food would be, so too appearing in public with her hair visible is an attack on the integrity of their marriage. Why? Because a woman’s hair is attractive to men, and this facet of her feminine beauty is to be reserved for her husband. (See Torah Temimah to Bamidbar 5:18.) While a minority of poskim rule that single women too must always keep their hair covered while in public, the accepted halacha has become to allow exposing the hair when unmarried. [There is, however, the weighty position of certain Acharonim that even single girls ought not keep their hair straight and unbraided; that would be immodest even for them. Instead, they should pull their hair up so that it doesn’t flow on their shoulders.] But for married women, it is a consensus position that the hair may not be uncovered in public. Fully uncovered hair is called by the Gemara a Das Moshe (Biblical) violation, while improperly covered hair is called by the Gemara a Das Yehudis (Jewish modesty norm) violation.

I hope that this helps.

Nope it doesn’t help. Firstly because women are allowed to be beautiful. God made some people very beautiful and they do not have to tone down their natural beauty by putting on make up that hides their beautiful eyes for example, or create pimples on their gorgeous smooth flawless faces. So your premise is just incorrect.
As for your quote by ‘somebody who studies the laws in depth,’ that’s fine. Covering hair is of upmost importance for a married Jewish woman. guess what? A lace top sheitel fulfills that requirement, to cover one’s hair, and actually does it wonderfully without a single piece of actual hair sticking out unlike many other methods of covering.

farm

Fri, Sep 09 2022, 12:36 pm

happysmile1 wrote:

A married woman should look nice and refined outside (she doesn't need to look ugly!)

But she is not supposed to look her most beautiful outside and adornments (like lots of makeup, showy jewlery and also a beautifying wig) are meant for the home.

In the Chassidish world there is an understanding that the less makeup outside the more modest and there are many women that even tuck Jewlery in when they are around men. There is also an understanding that the more wiggy the sheitel is the more modest. (btw I am not Chassidish but I have many Chassidish friends and I am constantly amazed at their sensitivity to tznius!)

Married women are supposed to try their utmost to not wear items and adornments that will cause men to look at them and think that they are very attractive. Since hair is so attracting to men and beautifying it is supposed to be covered with a head covering that ensures that a man does look at her and desire her.

For anyone that wants to see it Torah sourced they could just study Kesubos (72a-b). It says straight out that this is the reason and that if a woman is wearig a head covering that is not modest she could lose her kesubah for this! (It is compared to flirting with young men in the street!)

Now you’re just getting yourself into trouble making up your own narrishkeit. It never ceases to amaze me how much make up the general chassidish woman wears on a daily basis. There’s a certain look of a base coat that is culturally worn in those circles where the women look like a beautiful China doll. That is the ‘look on the street. And I would imagine that going out with a wig, as those women do in public, is infinitely more attractive than a bald head.

farm

Fri, Sep 09 2022, 12:38 pm

happysmile1 wrote:

I think that women don't realize how attractive they are to men!

And how attracting nice hair is to men! The Torah knows which is why there is this commandment of hair covering- so married women don't cause men to be attracted to them.

Hair is the best adornment- even more than lots of makeup and Jewlery so even if a woman is wearing a tichel but also wearing makeup and jewlery she will not affect a man the same way that she would with nice hair. Hair transforms the looks of a woman so much which is why there are many women in the secular world wearing wigs now - purely to enchance their looks.

Cloth is not attracting to men at all (unless lots of hair is showing) which is why a cloth covering was never a halachi debate. Only the use of wigs was debated and contraversial with many prominent Rabbanim assuring them.
There is a heter in the litvish world to wear wigs but then the question becomes which type of wigs are really okay to wear.... (especially since so many wigs today are so beautiful looking- usually much nicer than ones own hair!)

If this was true, single girls would be covering as well. Certainly once they reach a certain age. Ridiculous to claim hair would be more attractive than cleavage for example.

farm

Fri, Sep 09 2022, 12:41 pm

happysmile1 wrote:

I think its important for women to know that Rav Moshe Feinstein zt"l held that the reason for the hair covering is tznius too.

In his famous teshuvah allowing wigs (Igrot Moshe אבן העזר חלק ב סימן יב), Rav Moshe explicitly states:
דאין זה איסור לאו אלא איסור עשה דעל האשה להיות צנועה ולכסות ראשה.
So Rav Moshe holds like every other posek in the world that hair covering is for Tznius.

Which is why a beautifying wig goes against the entire purpose of the mitzvah of hair covering.

He also gave his psak in 1960! The wigs looked very very different then. We have no way of knowing what he would say to todays wigs which are a very different item...

I have a letter from the chavrusa of Rav Dovid Feinstein zt"l in which it says that according to Rav Dovid his father (Rav Moshe zt"l) would not have allowed the lace front and top wigs- women have to be able to recognize that it is a wig (and honestly many women can't)

I cannot think of a bigger chutzpah than for you to decide what a deceased person would say if they were alive today, how much more so the gadol hador.

amother

Acacia

Fri, Sep 09 2022, 12:53 pm

farm wrote:

Please dont paint specific sects in a negative way. Its really disrespectful.

Just because a lot of people dont belong to a certain sect, doesnt mean you can give comment on all chassidish women.

amother

Stoneblue

Sat, Sep 10 2022, 9:46 pm

amother Impatiens wrote:

Can someone clarify what exactly is the difference between a lace top and skin top?

And someone mentioned that lace tops are more comfortable - is that really true? I've heard not to wear them so never looked into it. But I find sheitels so uncomfortable and get headaches from wearing one for more than a couple hours. Would lace top be more comfortable?

It’s an entirely different different material. The lace is literally lace with holes is it’s very light and breathable. Skin tops don’t have any ventilation and the cap has a lot more hair then a lace top making it heavier as well. I know someone who never wore her shaitels (and she’s a shaitel macher!) because they always gave her headaches. She finally got a Lacetop and now she can wear her shaitel! Maybe you can ask a shayla to your rav and see what they. Explain the context of the problem you have with regular shaitels.

amother

Bergamot

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:42 am

happysmile1 wrote:

the way you are sayibg things, unmarried females should also be covering their hair. But we dont do that.

happysmile1

Mon, Sep 12 2022, 8:53 am

An unmarried woman does not need to cover her hair because she is allowed to look attractive to find a shidduch (but it does not mean that she could walk around with long loose immodest looking hair- she still needs to have a tznius hairstyle)

A married woman is very tempting to a man (stolen waters are sweeter) so she needs that extra geder of tznius to ensure that men aren't attracted to her (the sin of a man looking at a married woman is very great- much more so than at a single woman). The whole point of the head covering is to make sure that men don't look at her the wrong way. The Torah doesn't command married woman to have short refined "hair styles" after marriage- if that was the case women could just cut their hair after marriage! We were commanded to cover and conceal the beauty of hair- we are not supposed to look like modest single women with refined hair styles (which is what nice short wigs look like too)! We are supposed to look like we have a very obvious head covering on that does not make us attractive to men! This is only accomplished with cloth and less natural looking wiggier wigs.

A short pretty natural looking wig can be very immodest and attracting too...

nicole81

Mon, Sep 12 2022, 9:16 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Oh please. The lace wigs are pretty darn wiggy looking. I can spot one at 20 paces.

And even so, so what? It's way better than the way things used to be, with women pulling all the front of their hair out of the wig. I think this is more in line with halacha!

Agreed. I wear lace and I can tell lace. There are definitive look for. For all those people mentioning staring and staring to try to find the hairline, and thinking people aren't covering... Guess what, those aren't lace. Just more of the "pull half my hair out in front" crowd. I don't think that's happening any less.

happysmile1

Mon, Sep 12 2022, 9:20 am

I think that so much of this is self esteem and a lack of understanding of what real modesty is.

If women felt good about themselves without needing to look a certain away according to secular values that unfortunately infiltrated in to frum society- they wouldn't need to wear beautiful natural wigs to feel confident. We are so much more that nice "hair" on our heads! and the excuse that "I'm doing if for myself" really doesn't fly here- the reality is that most women dress up the most outside the house (where other men see them) and in the house look very dressed down and shlumpy (for their own husband). Women put on wigs to go out- in the public. When really they are supposed to be more modest in the streets - not less!

It is really kind of backwards today. It is supposed to the opposite, the Torah derech is to look stunning and beautiful at home for ones husband only and in the street to downplay one's beauty in front of other men.

That is real tznius!

taketwo

Mon, Sep 12 2022, 9:31 am

happysmile1 wrote:

Men sound terrifying in this post. 😳

amother

Dustypink

Mon, Sep 12 2022, 10:09 am

happysmile1 wrote:

I don't think you have a full understanding of women. Women dress themselves - for themselves. We put ourselves together - for ourselves. Not for anyone outside, or per any secular values.

We also dress up as per the workload involved. We don't dress up in the house cause I'm not going change babies with delicate attire or stand over open flames with a wig. Same goes for hiking - I don't dress up with a fancy wig and wear nice clothing to go hiking, nor to do gardening or any other physical activity with certain clothing. Believe me, I'd love to get up in the morning and dress up to the T - and sit around and do nothing.

It has everything to do with the task on hand, and nothing to do with trying to match up with secular values. Women have been dressing nicely since the onset of time. A woman's natural instinct is to present herself nicely. We do that when we can, but when the situation arises (housework..etc) and we have to put that aside, then so be it.

Tznius is not about dressing up or dressing down, nor is it about detracting from beauty. It's about presentation and attitude in any given environment. You can dress up in a beautiful manner and be 100% tznius. You can dress down in comfy clothing and be 100% tznius. That's not a paradox and it doesn't conflict with each other.