S/O OTD we can fix chinuch!

Thisisnotmyreal

Sat, Sep 10 2022, 9:25 pm

Tachlis
I keep thinking about how we can actually turn chinuch around. I don't want this to become a thread bashing hanhola or teachers. These are living Tzaddikim. We are all part of the problem. I wouldn't agree that this is just a yeshiva system problem. I am very doubtful that public school children are treated that much better.

Last edited by Thisisnotmyreal on Mon, Sep 12 2022, 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total

Thisisnotmyreal

Sat, Sep 10 2022, 9:38 pm

Also we can be as dreamy as we want here so yes it's fine to add some reality to someone's proposal, but I think for the internet we can be as idealistic and dreamy as we want. It's fine. Chill.

I would love to see yeshivos have some sort of personality and function assessment to see if someone is even capable of sitting 14 hours learning. Chances are it's a 1%. (Side topic: we should get over the whole "good shidduch" thing and let everyone be genuine about what they want.)

The rest should have a much more interactive day than a blatt gemara.

Goody2shoes

Sat, Sep 10 2022, 9:59 pm

If we are being dreamy then for me the ideal yeshiva/school actually has time and resources to invest in each child and figuring out what makes reach student tick and work with each ones needs Vs setting rules and writing off anyone who can't conform to them as a problematic child
100% impractical but in my ideal world......

Thisisnotmyreal

Sat, Sep 10 2022, 10:48 pm

JETS and TAG academy are awesome and are perfect for what they were made for. I would love to see a mix of regular yeshivos and these schools to become mainstream. Take the best from both.
https://www.tagacademy.org/

https://www.jetsschool.org/

Posted this video on another thread a while back but so relevant to this topic. And been dreaming about this becoming a reality since listening:

Thisisnotmyreal

Sat, Sep 10 2022, 11:23 pm

amother Honeydew wrote:

(I'm Mint from the other thread)

I'm a bit of a stick in the mud. My question is: if Rebbeim/gedolim/tzadikim created the yeshiva system and curriculum, are we allowed to change it? How much of it?

I knew this was coming. Lol.

There had been a meme or maybe video comparing different items and how they looked 100 years ago and what they look like now last is the classroom and it's exactly the same.

That's partially horrifying and partially beautiful.
Horrible because why haven't we paid any attention to education and implement any changes?

Beautiful because mesorah...

I do want to conclude with the point that seforim are going to become absolete in Geula. That means school would have definitely have changed as a result. (Yes life as we know it doesn't change, hence school and achievement will still be a thing)

ETA: Also grades? A lot of what we use is not holy.

amother

Honeydew

Sat, Sep 10 2022, 11:38 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

How can the classrooms be exactly the same as in the past? We don't have one room schoolhouses and slates. We have less students per class. We have smartboards and laptops and all kinds of learning utensils and supplies. We have gym and art and trips and parties/celebrations.

My sons are in the same Beis Midrash that my husband went to. He was speaking of the luxury nowadays- chavrusahs sit each at their own table. Back then 4 sets of chavrusahs shared one table with two benches.

I've never heard that sefarim will be obsolete when moshiach comes. Source for that?

Goody2shoes

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 12:09 am

amother Honeydew wrote:

(I'm Mint from the other thread)

I'm a bit of a stick in the mud. My question is: if Rebbeim/gedolim/tzadikim created the yeshiva system and curriculum, are we allowed to change it? How much of it?

I wonder how much of the original carriculam is still implemented in our yeshiva systems today
Also while you might be right about what is taught, maybe we can change the way it's taught.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 12:25 am

I may be a stick in the mud but I'm open to ideas.

How do you learn Gemara differently? We have Artscrolls, video shiurim, and even fun programs to practice skills. We have good teachers hopefully. What needs to change?

I have a bunch of boys and girls in the system and no complaints baruch Hashem.

Goody2shoes

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 12:58 am

So as I said before, most of my ideas are all impractical. I know what I would like to see a change in but I have no idea how to actually make it happen.
For example, in my ideal yeshiva, a 16 year old bachur would never be sitting home with no place to go come cheshvan just because he can't sit too long. He's a great boy and has a good head. But so far not one yeshiva will take him after hearing from his Rebbeim that he wasn't able to sit still for more then an hour tops. They tell my parents to try the smaller less demanding places, who then tell my parents that he's too good for them. And I know he's far from the only boy going thru this.
So what has to give? I don't know. What I do know is, if we do nothing to change anything we loose precious bachurim who never started off looking to be problematic.

Thisisnotmyreal

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 1:09 am

amother Honeydew wrote:

I'm so glad that you are comfortable and happy. Fact is that children are slipping through the wipe gaping holes, we can absolutely take responsibility so that not ONE student is left behind.

Why are grades a thing?

Why are teachers still shouting?

Why are high school teachers still asking for quiet?

Why is homework a thing?

Why are children sitting 8-14 hours a day?

Why are teachers talking and students listening?

Why are do we have "cultural" Judaism as standards in school?

Goody2shoes

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 1:43 am

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

If you'll allow me, I want to add to the cultural Judaism part.
Yiddishkeit is something so steeped with feelings and emotions. I would say that it's almost impossible to be an observant jew without those feelings.
So what happened? How did we go from there to doing mitzvohs "just because as Jews that's what we do?" Why are the feelings not being given over?

Another point that's been bothering me. I don't see children coming out of schools with the right hashkafos to continue on in life. Life isn't only about getting that 100 on the chumash/gemarah or any other subject. I feel like we place far too much emphasis on that. It's about taking the values that were taught and implying it in everyday life when you are being tested with the real stuff. Then it won't help if you can quote whole pages of Tanach backward. The only thing that will matter then is the values and hashkafos we were taught and internalized.

Last edited by Goody2shoes on Sun, Sep 11 2022, 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total

imorethanamother

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 1:58 am

Boys yeshivas with reduced Gemara hours. More nach, less gemara.

Stop telling boys how bad they are for not being good at Gemara.

Stop telling girls how bad they are for not being good at tznius.

Accept that no one is a fully formed human being at 14, and what they look like then won't be what they look like twenty years later.

Thisisnotmyreal

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 2:15 am

amother Honeydew wrote:

I've never heard that sefarim will be obsolete when moshiach comes. Source for that?

Took a while to find it again.

It's based on the fact that Melech Hamoshiach will teach all Yidden derech re'iyah. Re'iyah vs shmiah (seeing vs hearing) is a concept spelled out often in chassidus to explain many ideas. One example is the chassidic explanation on seeing thunder and hearing lightening at matan Torah and what that signifies.

The idea is similar to a picture is worth a thousand words. The Rebbe talks about seforim becoming obsolete, in a sense, at the end of his sicha on parshas Eikev 51.

ETA Rabbi Shais Taub talks about this in the video I posted. He makes it very practical and I think he uses the term there somatic Torah. If we can get our chinuch to be more kinetic and tactile as he describes we'd be better off.

amother

Whitewash

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 7:30 am

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

I mean, that's just one opinion. I don't think it's a universally held belief.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 7:50 am

alwayssmiling wrote:

Oy I'm sorry to hear this. I understand. My almost 16 year old has no zitsfleish but he is a good boy and an excellent learner as long as his attention span lasts. So far his yeshiva has been flexible with him. My older boys tell me that starting next year when there is more chavrusa time and less frontal-style shiurim, it is easier on the boys who have a hard time sitting.
This year a chabad mesivta opened for the first time for a boy like your brother. If you are open to it I can send you the information.
(By the way, sitting for an hour is pretty good! My son can't do that.)

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 8:05 am

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

I agree that schools need to up their game. The grading system is old fashioned and the curriculum needs improvement. Some teachers are better than others. Homework is also old fashioned (my kids haven't had homework in so long I forget it exists). Children are not sitting for so many hours straight, there are plenty of breaks and time to move around.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:26 am

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

Can you give examples of things he says? How to make it practical. I have a hard time paying attention when he talks- my problem, not his.