Woman does not accept gett

chouli

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 6:27 am

Hi, I recently heard about a woman who does not want to take the gett from her ex husband. The rabbi tried to exclude her from the community because of this. Now I'm wondering why is that a problem? OK, she is not behaving in the best way, but her ex-husband is free to do whatever she wants, no? Please enlighten me

nicole81

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 6:35 am

chouli wrote:

It takes a lot of money and influence to get a heter from 100 rabbanim permitting remarriage. He's not free until he can get that done-- I'd he even has the resources to do so. She's chaining him to the marriage in the meantime. Obviously it's nowhere near as bad as leaving a woman an agunah as we have no out, but it's pretty far up there with manipulative abusive behaviors and for a normal simple yid, he may never be able to secure his way out.

Alternative

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:02 am

ChossidMom wrote:

It's a big problem when a woman won't accept a get. A man is pretty stuck when that happens. Interestingly enough, only the men get bad press and shaming when they create an agunah situation.

Men are the ones who get bad press and shaming because ultimately women suffer much more than men in these cases.

A man can get heter meah rabbanim, not that uncommon.
Also a man can just move on and have more kids with another woman, and they are not labelled mazmerim.
A woman is stuck. Her biological clock is much shorter than a man’s. Every year counts. If she wants more kids, she needs the gett asap. Even the most secular woman (in israel at least) will be very reluctant to have more kids without the gett. No one wants their kids blacklisted.

And finally, the beis din looks very differently at a man who has a new partner than at a woman who does. A not-yet-divorced woman who is openly living or sleeping with someone new will be severely punished in beis din, while a man who does the same gets a finger wagged at him.

So yeah, male gett refusers are shamed more, because they are causing more pain.
(To be clear, I think it should be illegal for anyone to refuse a gett).

Alternative

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:12 am

ChossidMom wrote:

Sorry. I don't think we can measure the pain.
A man cannot "move on" if his wife won't accept a get.

Most men getting divorces in the beis din in Israel are not frum. They can and do move on. They don’t hang around waiting for the gett, they move in with their girlfriend and have more kids if they want. No repercussions.
So in the secular world, it’s much more terrible to be an agunah than an ‘agun’ (no such word, for a reason).
The frum men have heter meah rabbanim. They can move on. See Shuli Rand as one example. If the situation would have been reversed, his wife would have had no recourse.
And then there is the biological clock, which one cannot ignore. Women who want more kids have no time to lose. A woman who needs to wait for a gett from age 35 to 40 is in a much worse situation than a man waiting those same years. A man can easily expand his family after age 40. The time lost is not as critical to him.
Again, I am sure these men suffer. But they still have many more options than women.

carnation

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 11:40 am

nicole81 wrote:

and for a normal simple yid, he may never be able to secure his way out.

Have you ever heard of a man who was chained for life?

Last edited by carnation on Sun, Sep 11 2022, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

imorethanamother

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 1:06 pm

cnc wrote:

I can think of close to ten men that I know that got a heter meah rabbanim in the last ten years. I don’t believe it’s as difficult or rare as others are making it out to be.

It’s not. Many woman refuse a get from a corrupt Bais din. Somehow, men find a way to get married and move on.

dancingqueen

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 1:12 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

I am referring to frum men. Not secular. A man needs a get to be free and start a new family.

No, men have halachic recourse in that situation that women do not, full stop.

nicole81

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 3:41 pm

carnation wrote:

Have you ever heard of a man who was chained for life?

Obviously not, and I clearly stated that it's nowhere near as bad as chaining a woman. But any amount of chaining is abusive, manipulative, and unacceptable. The fact that some women are agunot for life does not take away from the fact that not accepting the get is also shameful and disgusting.

iyar

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 3:48 pm

cnc wrote:

I can think of close to ten men that I know that got a heter meah rabbanim in the last ten years. I don’t believe it’s as difficult or rare as others are making it out to be.

I don't know of a single one going back more than the last ten years. I wonder what community you're part of. Not that it makes a difference. The fact that you know ten and I know none proves nothing and says nothing about the pain both parties in similar situations go through.

2cents

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 4:00 pm

It's a completely different situation because a man can be married to more than one person at a time. There was no such thing as a woman not accepting a get until rabbainu Gershon made a cherem on polygamy for ashkenazim. Because it's a rabbinic ordinance and not an issur from the Torah (such as eishes ish), there's no risk of mamzairus and there's the heter of 100 rabbanim. (If a man has a bais din and rabbanim vouching for him, it's relatively easy to get. Especially out of town where there's a community Rav and bais din that everyone respects.)

watergirl

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 4:11 pm

iyar wrote:

Every women should know the name Meir Kin because we should all be davening for Lonna.

iyar

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 4:51 pm

I didn't know that either. Terrible. Do you know her name watergirl?
(You're making it sound as if her husband got a heter meah rabbanim. You know that happened? That's not the point here so you don't need to answer, it just seems so improbable. I wonder if anyone saw that.)

nicole81

Sun, Sep 11 2022, 5:08 pm

iyar wrote:

Yes he did get the heter. There are unscrupulous rabbanim that support get abuse. In this case, it was a rabbi tzvi dov Abraham, I think from LA. He helped meir get the heter as long as meir deposited a get with him. Sounds good, right? And this is the argument meirs supporters use to discount Lonna. Except that the get is only to be given to Lonna under the condition that she submits to binding arbitration that will redo all of their previously settled legal matters, in this same misogynist's beis din. Not only is it putting her in an impossible position, but it's blatantly anti Torah as a conditional get.