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momaleh




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 8:13 am
You probably heard of the horrible NYT coverage of Chasidic Yeshivos. They actually have this page LOOKING for more stories! "We need your help!" Running a terrible smear campaign!

If you went to a Chasidic school, please fill it out with GREAT stories! Please storm their newsroom.

This is the link on their web site:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/0......html
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Not_in_my_town




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 8:31 am
Yikes! Oh my gosh.
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Not_in_my_town




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 8:36 am
What is especially sad is that a Rosenthal and a Shapiro are looking for the stories...
As much as I've kvetched, coming a from a deeply pained place, I would never participate in that. In fact, I just asked Yael to delete my posting history. Let's get it off the internet and start over fresh, with only positivity.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:12 am
The article isn’t horrible. The situation the article reports on is horrible. The fact that there were several schools in which 99% or 100% of students failed basic competency exams is what is awful. It’s a chillul Hashem.

Note that the article reports only on schools for boys, not for girls. No member of imamother can write to the New York Times with an account that directly contradicts what they have written.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:20 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The article isn’t horrible. The situation the article reports on is horrible. The fact that there were several schools in which 99% or 100% of students failed basic competency exams is what is awful. It’s a chillul Hashem.

Note that the article reports only on schools for boys, not for girls. No member of imamother can write to the New York Times with an account that directly contradicts what they have written.

Read it again, they actually did report on girl's schools as well.
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crust




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:27 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The article isn’t horrible. The situation the article reports on is horrible. The fact that there were several schools in which 99% or 100% of students failed basic competency exams is what is awful. It’s a chillul Hashem.

Note that the article reports only on schools for boys, not for girls. No member of imamother can write to the New York Times with an account that directly contradicts what they have written.


The article isn't horrible.
To say that this is good investigation or proper research is.

Investigation means I hear a story from person A and before jumping to a conclusion I verify it with the person B.

Proper research is that at the very least I do a few rounds with both person A and person B to clarify discrepancies.

There's a name in the article that I personally know. The person is delusional but is quoted as if this person is completely normal.
Ok. Let's say the NYT didn't know that.
But why didn't they come to investigate if what this person is saying is true?

To call this research is an insult to my intelligence and I believe it is an insult to your intelligence too.

As a side note, they keep dropping stink bombs on the girls schools as well.
Here's one qoute;

Quote:
Girls receive more secular education because they study fewer religious texts. But they, too, are struggling: About 80 percent of the girls who took standardized tests last year failed
.
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sushilover




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:30 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The article isn’t horrible. The situation the article reports on is horrible. The fact that there were several schools in which 99% or 100% of students failed basic competency exams is what is awful. It’s a chillul Hashem.

Note that the article reports only on schools for boys, not for girls. No member of imamother can write to the New York Times with an account that directly contradicts what they have written.


There are public schools with similar rates and these kids are prepared for months for the tests and cost the taxpayers $30,000 per student!
You cannot teach a child if their home and culture do not value the subject matter. Period.


Last edited by sushilover on Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Not_in_my_town




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:30 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The article isn’t horrible. The situation the article reports on is horrible. The fact that there were several schools in which 99% or 100% of students failed basic competency exams is what is awful. It’s a chillul Hashem.

Note that the article reports only on schools for boys, not for girls. No member of imamother can write to the New York Times with an account that directly contradicts what they have written.


Listen, there is room we can approve, that's for sure. But to plaster it across the NY Times is only a direct way to increase antisemitism.

I also want to point out their lashon; after speaking of the failures in Jewish schools, they pointed out that more than 50% of a public school passed. Seriously? Just over 50%? Last I checked, that was a failing number as well. And these are kids who are primarily educated in the language of choice. It doesn't mean that they failed b/c of language, it means they failed b/c of content.

Our kids would pass with flying colors if tested in the language of their choice, in many topics. The education isn't subpar; it's just different. No one can say a Jewish kid doesn't walk out with broad critical thinking skills and a grasp on a wide range of topics.

Yes, they'll fail gender studies, relations ed, and evolution.

And Baruch Hashem for that.
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Raindropsonrose




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:32 am
[quote="Not_in_my_town".

Our kids would pass with flying colors if tested in the language of their choice, in many topics. The education isn't subpar; it's just different. No one can say a Jewish kid doesn't walk out with broad critical thinking skills and a grasp on a wide range of topics.

Yes, they'll fail gender studies, relations ed, and evolution.

And Baruch Hashem for that.[/quote]

The article discusses failure rates for English and math, not the things you’re discussing.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:38 am
Not_in_my_town wrote:
Listen, there is room we can approve, that's for sure. But to plaster it across the NY Times is only a direct way to increase antisemitism.

I also want to point out their lashon; after speaking of the failures in Jewish schools, they pointed out that more than 50% of a public school passed. Seriously? Just over 50%? Last I checked, that was a failing number as well. And these are kids who are primarily educated in the language of choice. It doesn't mean that they failed b/c of language, it means they failed b/c of content.

Our kids would pass with flying colors if tested in the language of their choice, in many topics. The education isn't subpar; it's just different. No one can say a Jewish kid doesn't walk out with broad critical thinking skills and a grasp on a wide range of topics.

Yes, they'll fail gender studies, relations ed, and evolution.

And Baruch Hashem for that.


They fail basic life skills as well. Many are able to pick that up on their own, but many can't. That is the biggest failure of our educational system (in some communities, not all of course). Passing with flying color on gemara and Jewish history is fantastic, but that doesn't translate to life skills for many.

So as much as it pains me to see all these horrible things written, I can't bring myself to write anything in support of it. To defend something that hurts so many is something I just can't do. If we'd take action ourselves to shore things up a bit for our kids, then I'd be standing in line to knock such things down. But as long as we turn a blind eye to all the pain that our system is causing, how can I take part in any sort of defense?
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:45 am
crust wrote:
.

Are you saying that they were lying? If so, can't they sue the New York Times? I don't understand what you are saying.
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crust




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:49 am
jkl wrote:
They fail basic life skills as well. Many are able to pick that up on their own, but many can't. That is the biggest failure of our educational system (in some communities, not all of course). Passing with flying color on gemara and Jewish history is fantastic, but that doesn't translate to life skills for many.

So as much as it pains me to see all these horrible things written, I can't bring myself to write anything in support of it. To defend something that hurts so many is something I just can't do. If we'd take action ourselves to shore things up a bit for our kids, then I'd be standing in line to knock such things down. But as long as we turn a blind eye to all the pain that our system is causing, how can I take part in any sort of defense?


You don't need to defend and you don't need to support.
You are missing the point.
This article will do nothing to make the ones in charge take action.

What it will do is instigate more antisemitism.

How is that helpful?
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crust




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:52 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Are you saying that they were lying? If so, can't they sue the New York Times? I don't understand what you are saying.


You make it sound as if suing the NYT is just a matter of a phone call.

This person's family and school are, contrary to what the article sais, not as rich as Johnny Depp is. They don't have the millions to pour into a defamation case.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 9:59 am
crust wrote:
You don't need to defend and you don't need to support.
You are missing the point.
This article will do nothing to make the ones in charge take action.

What it will do is instigate more antisemitism.

How is that helpful?


I agree it's not helpful. But I think defending the broken system will be equally not helpful. So I don't see how lying or covering up the truth is going to get us anywhere.

I'm sad that this is in the news, but providing false info to make this go away can come back to bite us. All those 'wonderful stories' can be used by others to further push along this broken system. Why should we create fake documentation to counter this. We should instead be getting together and fixing our system - and then use all those plans & changes to show what a good system we're setting up. Denying that our system is broken hurts us in all ways, stepping up to say that we're taking action ourselves will help us all the way around.
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crust




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:09 am
jkl wrote:
I agree it's not helpful. But I think defending the broken system will be equally not helpful. So I don't see how lying or covering up the truth is going to get us anywhere.

I'm sad that this is in the news, but providing false info to make this go away can come back to bite us. All those 'wonderful stories' can be used by others to further push along this broken system. Why should we create fake documentation to counter this. We should instead be getting together and fixing our system - and then use all those plans & changes to show what a good system we're setting up. Denying that our system is broken hurts us in all ways, stepping up to say that we're taking action ourselves will help us all the way around.


I agree about taking action.
I just don't think that change in our communities can happen through articles in the NYT, investigations or hate.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:17 am
I would like them to publish the names of all schools with >80% of their students readings and doing math at grade level. Let's see what they are doing right.
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jkl




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:17 am
crust wrote:
I agree about taking action.
I just don't think that change in our communities can happen through articles in the NYT, investigations or hate.


I agree 100%. But we don't have control over what's put into the NYT, but we do have control over our responses. In writing these fake narratives, we are accomplishing nothing. If anything, we're adding fuel to the fire. We would accomplish so much more if our response would be that we recognize our system has flaws, and here is how we are changing things up. We can detail what has been done in the last few years, and further change that we plan on implementing, etc.

Or something like that. But pretending that our system is great fools nobody. People see right through such an organized response. It doesn't hold much sway.
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crust




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:25 am
jkl wrote:
I agree 100%. But we don't have control over what's put into the NYT, but we do have control over our responses. In writing these fake narratives, we are accomplishing nothing. If anything, we're adding fuel to the fire. We would accomplish so much more if we would response would be that we recognize our system has flaws, and here is how we are changing things up. We can detail what has been done in the last few years, and further change that we plan on implementing, etc.

Or something like that. But pretending that our system is great fools nobody. People see right through such an organized response. It doesn't hold much sway.


Their agenda is not to help us.
Once we are clear about that we understand that writing back anything isn't worth the time.

They will write up the responses in a way that will come back to bite us.
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shoshanim999




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:26 am
crust wrote:
I agree about taking action.
I just don't think that change in our communities can happen through articles in the NYT, investigations or hate.




Help me understand. I feel sad about this. I don't think the communities want change. Change means studying algebra, geometry, American history, global studies, Biology, and reading novels. Do these yeshivos want that? I think the answer is no.


And on one hand that might be fine. Most *graduates* of the system turn out fine and are wouldn't meaningfully change anything. Of course there will be some disgruntled people as well.

But isn't a big part of the problem that they are taking massive aid to the tune of a billion dollars in the last 4 years and then not using it for the purpose it was designated for? I think if we take that sentence out of the article I don't think I have an issue with much else. But once they're taking all this money, don't they now have a responsibility to follow the guidelines on curriculum?
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crust




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Sep 11 2022, 10:32 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
Help me understand. I feel sad about this. I don't think the communities want change. Change means studying algebra, geometry, American history, global studies, Biology, and reading novels. Do these yeshivos want that? I think the answer is no.


And on one hand that might be fine. Most *graduates* of the system turn out fine and are wouldn't meaningfully change anything. Of course there will be some disgruntled people as well.

But isn't a big part of the problem that they are taking massive aid to the tune of a billion dollars in the last 4 years and then not using it for the purpose it was designated for? I think if we take that sentence out of the article I don't think I have an issue with much else. But once they're taking all this money, don't they now have a responsibility to follow the guidelines on curriculum?


I agree with you.

I know a few schools that do not take any government money for this precise reason.

The article doesn't mention them and it makes one wonder if their only concern is actually the money or is it the lack of secular studies or is it simply a good hot topic on a boring Sunday morning.

Also, just an fyi, the new guidelines will not care whether your school takes funding or not. You'll have to abide by the rules in order to be called a school.
Parents will be sued for abuse if they send their children to a school that doesn't follow the rules.
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