Under the radar HS Student

DVOM

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 7:17 am

amother Ebony wrote:

I went to a very good public school (became frum after college) and currently teach high school in a BY school. I have daughters in hs now and also some post-seminary daughters. I guess I’m trying to understand why having jobs and official recognition from the school is so important. My girls never stood out and are perfectly happy. My own identity in hs had nothing to do with what the admin thought of me. If you have friends and overall enjoy life in hs, why would external recognition matter? (I’m actually asking to understand better, not to say it doesn’t matter. It obviously mattered a lot to some posters.)

I was going to ask the same.

I had little to no interest in getting attention or recognition from my teachers. I was very happy to learn, study, spend time with my friends and family. I was always middle of the road, a hardworking B student, a kid in the choir, a part of the group, but not the head or the leader or the soloist or the favorite, and I was very content. I signed up for jobs that interested me. In 12th grade my job was to paint scenery. I loved that! In 10th grade I was on a committee that brought in speakers for assemblies.

Only a few kids (maybe 10 in my grade of 120?) can be the heads of school functions. That means most kids are not being chosen for these things. I don't remember me or my friends caring very much. High school was great fun without being at the top of the ladder.

I'd love to understand this better.

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 9:01 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

I was a nobody but I think I wanted to be that. I had no particular school spirit and didn't want to take part in school government or committees or even clubs. I had my group of friends who were similar "slackers" and our interests just weren't in that direction.

Some of the teachers tolerated me while others really liked me and that was really based for the most part on how much interest I actually had in the subject matter. Some courses I did really well in - super excellent while others I performed competently.

Honestly I am still that way as an adult as I don't really have that much interest for the most part in community affairs. There are a few causes when something is important to me and I have actually been a leader in terms of implementing something significant but for the most part I am content with my family and like minded social circle and I essentially enjoying chilling to the extent possible.

Me exactly.

LK1

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 9:29 am

DVOM wrote:

Maybe you had a lot of self confidence in your high school years already. Most girls don't, myself included. And yes, I needed recognition. I wanted to be noticed by my teachers and principals. And I wasn't. I just floated along.

Chayalle

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 9:49 am

I was an A+ student who got picked for nothing until 12th grade when I was given the job of yearbook English editor. While my friends had fun going to BY convention (you could only go if you were GO or or had no production/yearbook job), running Chagigas, Rosh Chodesh events, etc.....I could not join because I got to write up some paragraphs for the yearbook. I really felt limited socially because of this - relegated to "academic geek" status with no ability to contribute my creative talents.

But as an adult, I feel that it's really an impossible situation. You have a few jobs for a grade full of girls (even one that had about 70 students, not 300, like mine).

One of my DD's was head of song dance as a senior. She really enjoyed it, she was happy with her job, and we were proud of her for it.

The next year I was talking to a relative of mine who felt the school was not doing enough to make her daughter "shine" (her words). All her daughter was chosen for was song dance head.

My mother A"H used to say we can't all be the chief of the Indians. Some need to be braves, there's only one chief.

amother

Green

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 11:57 am

amother Ebony wrote:

I don't think it's necessarily about getting job positions. It's about not being seen. I know girls who were assigned chidon at Color War. They wanted to paint banner, or be in choir, but they were given this and couldn't so both (either school rule or needed the time to study up.) I know girls who walked through high school and realized senior year that pretty much nobody knew them. In a school with a couple hundred girls, when it came time for the principal to help then get into seminary, she didn't know anything about them other than what was written on a piece of paper. The principal waxed poetic about the girls she had worked with, on commitees or to build a custom academic program to help them shine. But these girls didn't get in- they were not pushed in as strongly, and didn't have as many well-rounded school extracurriculars that are looked for.

DVOM

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 7:34 am

amother Green wrote:

But what is the solution?

My high school had about 500 students. 1 principal. Let's say 35 staff members? Of those, at least 10 had zero interest in 'connecting' with students. They taught their subject, and that's it.

Let's say 25 staff members willing and able to provide kids with extra love, recognition, attention, and 500 kids who want to feel special, to 'shine', as Chayalla put it. Maybe 20 'top' school jobs to confer that specialness over the course of a kids high school years. Doesn't sound doable to me. Not every kid is going to connect, or shine.

I think our expectations of schools are unrealistic.

I consider it my job to give my kids the feeling of being seen, heard. They're special to me and my husband, the most precious, beautiful, brilliant, interesting kids in the world, and they shine in our home. They bring that specialness with them wherever they go. I see it's working. Their value is an immutable fact, weather or not they're a favorite of their teachers or principles, weather or not they're the chosen few for extra jobs or attention in school.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 7:46 am

DVOM wrote:

I can’t agree with you more

And phrased less nicely, this need for every student to be picked, acknowledged, “seen” by the world around them (which school is a microcosm of) is emblematic to me of the snowflake generation. Life is not really like this. There will always be smarter, prettier, more talented, more regarded people. The goal to me is to hold your own value regardless of what others think or do, regardless even of what you can or can’t do. I felt bad for the kids who were (let’s say) GO president and color war head and in dance and choir. Only to get to the real world and find that’s not a thing. ‘Fame’ and High regard can puff someone up with air than deflate them when it’s not given the same notice in a different time and place.

amother

Mulberry

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 8:02 am

amother Green wrote:

I got a "good" job in 12th grade but that was only because the teacher in charge knew my family. Other than that, I was never given recognition. I still had plenty of teachers who knew me. I made sure of that because I wanted it... There are teachers who are willing to be there for their students, to give them that extra attention and acknowledgment. But they can't know the student wants it if you don't reach out - at least a bit...

Perhaps we should be encouraging students to reach out and connect. It doesn't need to be anything major or personal. I would usually ask my questions on their lesson and over time little bits and details were shared...

amother

Green

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 8:34 am

I think you guys are right in a world that doesn't require the principal's hard sell to get someone into school after. But right now, it does.

Realistically, every girl should get a mechaneches meeting or the equivalent twice a year, preferably 4 times. There should be enough mechanchos or rakezets or whatever that this can happen- I hope many teachers of the right kind will sign on for a extra pay.

Then, each mechaneches needs to be available to write a recommendation for her girls. Many won't use her- they will have a favorite teacher who will say yes. But everyone has someone they've been talking to if needed. And there should be a notification when a girl's meeting is coming up (I know pinpointing an exact day is hard) so she (and her parents) can figure out if they want to address something. The parents can send an email if something is worrying them, the girl can talk to teachers if necessary if she wants to alter her curriculum, etc.

Basically, each girl has an address who isn't responsible for the whole school, maybe not the whole grade. When she wants to branch out in extracurriculars vs academic, or to be given a chance on a high academic level, etc, she is going to one person, who gets to know her. And they will each advocate for their girls. It's not perfect- some will be quieter, some will have more pull, etc. But it's something. And that person is there as a reference point for whoever needs it, including within the school.

DVOM

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 8:35 am

amother Mulberry wrote:

An excellent point.

Seems to me that anyone who wants a connection with a mentor can have one. All they need to do is reach out. Why aren't the kids who are feeling invisible doing this? Why wait to have someone else shine a spotlight on you? Imas who felt unappreciated or unrecognized in high school, what was your role in all this? What actions did you take?

Even for kids who actively pursue a mentor relationship though, it doesn't seem to be 'enough'. There are so many posts here by women mourning the shortcomings of their mentors. If your not able to generate your own shine from within, no one elses second hand spotlight is going to ever feel like enough.

As I'm thinking about this, I'm remembering that I did actually have a relationship with a teacher.

My high school principal was a brilliant woman, and I admired her a great deal. After high school, during my dating years, I plucked up the courage to ask for her advice a few times. It was a very enriching experience. The relationship was all one sided, initiated, maintained and continued by me during those years. I called her, we spoke, we hung up, and I'm sure I passed right out of her mind until the next time I called. She cared, gave me time and attention during those phone calls, considered my questions and answered thoughtfully, and I appreciated it greatly, but I wasn't sitting back, waiting for her to give me attention or recognition. If I had expected more, I would have been sorely disappointed.

amother

Iris

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 8:50 am

Anon because I am going to be specific.

When I read the OP, I thought "jobs" referred to employment after HS or college. It took a number of posts before I realized it was referring to BY BO style jobs. My first, initial comment applies to both, honestly.

I went to public school for the first two years of high school. Later when I was in college (a frum women's college), my professor in a ed. psych class spoke about a program that many public high schools in the area had and he mentioned the one I went to specifically because they were the ones who had done the pilot program and initial research. The program is this - students in honors and remedial classes do better in school and in life than students in the median "regulars" level classes. Why? Honors and remedial level HS students have the benefit of being watched and tracked closely by the school and teachers, they have a special eye on them. Most remedial students have either an IEP or a 504 Plan. Honors students have a good relationship with their school counselors. Regulars level HS students are proven to be the highest risk of dropping out, failing, and get into the most basic programs in college without scholarships for academic excellence or academic resilience.

So what did my HS pilot? A program for all of the (MANY) students in all regular level classes. For the first two years of school (9th and 10th grade) they also have special classes and the teachers remain the same for both years, with special activities and 1:1 time. After the pilot ended, these students as a group made a significant improvement in 11th and 12th grade and beyond.

I mention this here because even in the BY schools and in this thread, we see here that the students who were just sliding by, not getting all A+ or very bad grades are the ones here saying they felt ignored in school and it stayed with them. You are not only not alone, but literal peer reviewed studies have been published in major academic journals showing exactly this, as well as offering a remedy.

I was in remedial classes in HS and had an IEP, so I was part of another program my public HS had but I was so jealous of the kids in the "SEAL" program, as it was called, because of all of the cool things they got to do. I felt shame for it for a long time. As I sat there in college hearing later how the "SEAL" kids were more at-risk then me, I just cried and cried from finally understanding.

To those wondering, I went to Stevenson High School in a suburb of Chicago called Buffalo Grove. The college I am referring to here is TI, the women's division of HTC.

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On the BY jobs:

My daughter just graduated Bnos Yisroel in Baltimore and is now in seminary. I loved every single aspect about Bnos. After reading the comments in this thread, I love the school even more.

When Bnos says they want every girl to shine, they mean it. In 11th and 12th grade, every girl is head of something and no one job is better than the other. They pick the production heads not for talent, but out of knowing each girl and what she needs the most at that time. The production solos are given to everyone who wants one, which means everyone can have her moment. This means production is not a time for talent, but for nachas. The ONLY job which requires high grades are the yearbook editors (there are 4 of them) only because they know the demand on the job, and a girl who is struggling in classes won't be able to do her school work and yearbook work at the same time. The two wealthiest families in town send their girls to Bnos and those girls get the same kinds of jobs as anyone else, chosen for what they need at that time, just like everyone else.

There are four jobs who get hoodies, but that is not because it's a "better" job; they get them because they are all year jobs (as opposed to chanukah chagiga, shabbaton, etc), and those are actually the jobs most girls do not want... so it's a bit of incentive.

To my knowledge, the other BY here in Baltimore (BY Baltimore) has way more girls, but way more opportunities, and every girl there is also head of something.

I really love and appreciate how the Baltimore schools seem to see the whole child and not just money, grades, or yichus.

amother

Heather

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 9:42 am

I agree that parents have to provide the bedrock of support in raising kids to know and believe in themselves and their capacities to achieve their own goals.

But, I still think a school has to make an effort to reach out.

THink about it. Don't you get recognition at work? Don't you feel good when people want to consult with you and get your opinion? And if you had a job where you were NEVER acknowledged, wouldn't that drain you and make you upset? That's not only relegated to adulthood.

For some people, yeah they're happy with a job that pays the bills and don't see it as soul-sucking when they come in to drudge day after day with no acknowldgemnt. But there a lot of people who would find that kind of job draining, sad, and demoralizing.

Its the same concept for kids in school. Not sure why young adults shouldn't be in an environment where they are acknowledged if we give a nod to adults who want the same.

LK1

Thu, Sep 15 2022, 9:49 am

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

I don't think the problem is that everyone has to be "seen". The problem IMHO is that the school DOES emphasize the girls that DO get to be in the limelight. They talk about them, praise them, and acknowledge their work. Maybe they should acknowledge that this is a problem and be more passive about those girls so everyone else doesn't feel they are missing something.