How much are you paying for your apartment in EY for Succos?

amother

Amber

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 12:43 pm

amother Pearl wrote:

I'm happy that the greed and exploitation is being challenged in this unique way
To all those posters on the other thread who were claiming that the inflated prices are because it has to be worthwhile, otherwise they can't rent out their apartment; I'm afraid that you have been proven wrong.

Greed and exploitation is NEVER okay and you should not be excusing bad behaviour, EVER.

The fact that someone is undercutting the market by renting out likely illegal caravans which no one lives in so he can rent it for just above cost and bring in a few hundred shekels per caravan, then do the same next year and bring in an even bigger return on his original investment, I mean, that's great for him....

BUT

It doesn't mean that the people who are now dropping their prices aren't doing so at a cost to themselves, large or small. Even if it means that they now lose out on days of work getting the apartment perfect but that won't be covered by the cost of renting out the apartment, that's still a loss.

Some of them will exactly break even and find that all that unpaid work means it's not worthwhile next year.

Others will still do it because they are counting on the money and MUST go to relatives (family politics) and find that they ended up with a loss of a few hundred shekel.

Or they will find their apartment trashed and have no money to replace anything because they just barely broke even or had a 100 NIS profit which isn't nearly enough to cover the cost of replacing things.

And really it doesn't matter even if they do make a small profit, it is not the profit they needed and budgeted for and their simchas yom tov turns to worry and regret, all so that privileged Americans can come and use their apartment. So one family's simchas yom tov at the expense of another.

And besides for that, it doesn't matter whether you think it's greed and exploitation, and how dare you accuse such a large number of frum Jews of such a thing, because supply and demand is how the free market works. And if you don't like it that's fine but you don't get to call people who charge more than you want to pay greedy and exploitive. Shame on you.

And one more thing. What happens when the authorities come and insist on removing all these illegal caravans in the middle of Sukkot/ RH? Where will the families who rented them go? Will they be compensated? What happens to their belongings?

amother

Pearl

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 1:02 pm

amother Amber wrote:

These people insist on making 2000% profit. This is exploitation to the highest level. They didn't always charge so much and yet it was somehow still worth their while. Many of them have been renting out for years. They know exactly what they are in for. They don't have to realise any new things about it being worthwhile or not for next time.

Please don't make unfounded claims that some will make a loss, when in fact, they are charging many times over the rental price they pay.

The other thread had explicitly said they can ONLY rent out for the crazy high prices, or else they would not go to the bother to rent out. This is COMPLETELY UNTRUE.
It was repeated again and again on that thread.
Please do not try now to change that narrative

Also, Americans used to comfortable homes are NOT going to be renting caravans. So the supply and demand situation still remains the exact same as before.

They have dropped the prices by thousands. Because they are still going to be turning in a nice profit.(Just like they did in the past when prices were not as crazy)
They are greedy and feel entitled to squeeze out of the Americans as much as it goes.

Thankfully, There are decent people out there who are not seeking to exploit with outrageous prices. Kol Hakavod to them.
I always manage B"h to stick to those people who charge regular prices. I also leave for them a nice gift in addition to the payment.

ETA: I also feel it's a tzedokah B' derech kavod when I rent from these Kollel families who are not being supported by wealthy parents. Yes, it's in prime area, basic and decent apartment and at a normal price range.

amother

Amber

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 1:31 pm

amother Pearl wrote:

2000% of what? Of what it costs them for a long-term rental?

So you don't count the effort they put into it, the loss of workdays, the electricity and water and gas that you use (because you don't pay the bill that they get after you leave).

You say they didn't always charge this much and they've been renting out for years. Guess what, the cost of electricity, water, gas, property tax - all of that has risen. Consistently. Over 200%. Their costs are going up. They have a right to raise their prices.

You say they pay a rental price, guess what? Those have also skyrocketed, and I mean skyrocketed, over the years. Yes. And the dollar-shekel rate has plummeted. Each of your dollars is worth less to them in shekels. But their expenses have still risen. So they need to charge more dollars for this to be worthwhile. Yup.

Some will rent the caravans. Not all. But I guess if this innovative guy is seeing success, then SOMEONE from abroad is renting out the caravans.

How dare you call them greedy and entitled. You have no idea, NO IDEA, how much our living expenses have risen in the past few years. Us meaning everyone living in EY. For basic stuff like rent, water, electricity, gas, property tax, milk, bread, cheese.

Yeah, thankfully there are those who have the luxury of renting their place out without putting in so much time and effort, without having to pay for a place for their own family to stay. Luckily there are those who even if you end up using thousands and thousands in water and electricity that month and trash their place they will still find a way to either suck it up or find someone who can help them out. It's very lucky for them, good for them that they can do that. It's also not fair to expect it of everyone.

BTW there's another issue you've forgotten about. Or didn't know about. Tax authorities are cracking down and many ppl who used to take this money and it slipped under the radar are probably getting investigated for it. So more people are declaring this as income and that means that they need to pay tax on it, which means they're passing tax on to you. If they are doing it legally, that is. And if they are not then they are taking a risk and the profit needs to be enough to cover that risk.

Your ETA I agree with. And it's nice that you leave them a gift.

I have no stake in this argument, I live in EY, never rented my place out, never rented a place from someone living here. Not interested in getting into this, I'd rather swap places with a friend for free (like every good Israeli).

But this calling people greedy and entitled is just not okay. Especially coming from tourists who are able to pay big bucks and miss weeks of work to spend y"t in the setting of their choice. It's just privilege, gross privilege, and it's even more disgusting when you name-call the people who enable you to enjoy your privilege. So just stop.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 1:40 pm

amother Amber wrote:

2000% of what? Of what it costs them for a long-term rental?

So you don't count the effort they put into it, the loss of workdays, the electricity and water and gas that you use (because you don't pay the bill that they get after you leave).

You say they didn't always charge this much and they've been renting out for years. Guess what, the cost of electricity, water, gas, property tax - all of that has risen. Consistently. Over 200%. Their costs are going up. They have a right to raise their prices.

You say they pay a rental price, guess what? Those have also skyrocketed, and I mean skyrocketed, over the years. Yes. And the dollar-shekel rate has plummeted. Your dollar is worth less to them in shekels. But their expenses have still risen.

Some will rent the caravans. Not all. But I guess if this innovative guy is seeing success, then SOMEONE from abroad is renting out the caravans.

How dare you call them greedy and entitled. You have no idea, NO IDEA, how much our living expenses have risen in the past few years. Us meaning everyone living in EY. For basic stuff like rent, water, electricity, gas, property tax, milk, bread, cheese.

Yeah, thankfully there are those who have the luxury of renting their place out without putting in so much time and effort, without having to pay for a place for their own family to stay. Luckily there are those who even if you end up using thousands and thousands in water and electricity that month and trash their place they will still find a way to either suck it up or find someone who can help them out. It's very lucky for them, good for them that they can do that. It's also not fair to expect it of everyone.

BTW there's another issue you've forgotten about. Or didn't know about. Tax authorities are cracking down and many ppl who used to take this money and it slipped under the radar are probably getting investigated for it. So more people are declaring this as income and that means that they need to pay tax on it, which means they're passing tax on to you. If they are doing it legally, that is. And if they are not then they are taking a risk and the profit needs to be enough to cover that risk.

Your ETA I agree with. And it's nice that you leave them a gift.

I have no stake in this argument, I live in EY, never rented my place out, never rented a place from someone living here. Not interested in getting into this, I'd rather swap places with a friend for free (like every good Israeli).

But this calling people greedy and entitled is just not okay. Especially coming from tourists who are able to pay big bucks and miss weeks of work to spend y"t in the setting of their choice. It's just privilege, gross privilege, and it's even more disgusting when you name-call the people who enable you to enjoy your privilege. So just stop.

You are completely missing the point.
When prices were not as crazy, they were still within the realms of more normal, taking into consideration ALL relevant factors such as their own rental costs , water, energy and cost of living and ALL the work involved to rent out their place and or rent a different place ;if they couldn't move in with family.)

What's happening now is way beyond ALL inflation and other relevant factors.

I thought they can only rent out at sky high prices to cover all their costs?
Hmmmm, don't you realise that this seems very fishy if they can suddenly afford to drop not by a few hundred but by THOUSANDS?
Are you trying to tell me that you really believe people are so dumb that they are going to go to such great lengths only to make a loss?
Do you think these people are that dumb that they don't know the maths?

Wake up and smell the coffee.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 1:49 pm

Quote:

But this calling people greedy and entitled is just not okay. Especially coming from tourists who are able to pay big bucks and miss weeks of work to spend y"t in the setting of their choice. It's just privilege, gross privilege, and it's even more disgusting when you name-call the people who enable you to enjoy your privilege. So just stop.

I am not paying big bucks. Plus I am renting out my own place (for a normal price too,) to help cover costs.
We booked tickets well in advance and caught a major deal for a joke price. Yes, including a stop over.
I am not missing weeks of work. Our jobs are closed during Chol Hamoed and we are coming only for Sukkos. So please don't paint me as an entitled, privileged tourist, because you are barking up the wrong tree.

I am not renting a beautiful place. Far from that. It's very very simple but clean. That's all.
We don't go on any expensive tours or trips and we use public transport.

amother

Amber

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 1:51 pm

amother Pearl wrote:

You are also missing the point. As a chutznik you have no idea what the scale of their expenses is, so claiming that they are exploiting, greedy, making 2000% profit is simply your unfair assumption and quite likely (almost certainly) untrue.

I'm not denying that prices are likely SOMEWHAT above what they need to be. But that is fair market. And people are learning to value their time and energy - something that in the past not everyone did. Women's work was seen as free and women's time as expendable. Now women are realizing that they do not have to martyr themselves for every penny, that their time is worth something, their effort is worth something, that they should only invest in something that will give them a fair profit, a fair return on their investment of time and energy - energy that could have been spent on their families, for instance.

You don't know their rental costs, their water and electricity costs, the cost of renting a different place. You're not looking at their bank accounts. You're making assumptions. Lots of them.

Yes it could be that some people are going to make a profit. Some will miscalculate or from the pressure of the last minute forget to take some factors into consideration and end up with a loss. Some will do the math and say it is worth it anyways and then find themselves so overwhelmed and exhausted that they regret dropping the price because it simply isn't worth the time and energy anymore. And that is likely to be a big group, because you often *think* that you'll be fine and you can handle it and then realize that you're not really fine and you can't really handle it and you were only doing it because it brought in enough money for it to be worth it, and now it's not bringing in that sum and you are angry and resentful and feel very used.

Don't tell me wake up and smell the coffee. You wake up and realize that calling these people exploitive and greedy and saying that this is fishy and they are just inflating to take advantage, is an unfair blanket assumption that you have no right to make.

Just for kicks btw I asked my husband about this and what if, and he without me telling him costs said it would have to be a nice 50k shekel for him to even think it would be worth the hassle, time, effort, etc. to leave for three weeks. Right now that's in dollars around $15k. I don't know where that falls on your price scale - low, high, in-between, fair, unfair, whatever...but that's what it would have to be to cover all expenses and pay us for our time and effort and the risks involved and moving our kids out of the house for so long and finding where to store our stuff (for pay obviously). He doesn't know this market, knew somewhat that it exists but doesn't know the scale or any details, he's oblivious. But it's obvious enough to him that the hassle is great enough that only 50K would be worth it. So some people sell themselves cheap, that doesn't mean others are exploiting.

amother

Amber

Wed, Sep 14 2022, 1:59 pm

amother Pearl wrote:

Quote:

It's privilege that you both work at jobs that are closed during chol hamoed but you can still finish the month in the black.
It's privilege that you can pay for your entire family to fly for three weeks - that is at least a couple thousand dollars if not more. Deal or no deal. Unless you are a young couple and got tickets for $1k for both of you.

Even if you have made this only one week and done it well on a budget (kudos) that doesn't mean that the masses doing this for 3 weeks aren't more privileged than the people they are renting from.

And anyone who claims that the people less privileged than themselves should be charging less so that those who can afford these vacations can do so at a lower price - that claim in itself is entitled and privileged.

The people you are renting from cannot afford even the vacation you are taking, even at the low price you've found. They can't. You have more privilege than them. The entire community of tourists from abroad coming in for the chagim are more privileged, MUCH more privileged, than the people they are renting from.

There is privilege here and denying it is futile.