The justification of hitting

amother

Smokey

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:46 pm

amother Burlywood wrote:

Rabbi Avigdor Miller should not be the reason behind any chinuch decision. He has ruined many lives. If you didn't daven in his shul while he was the Rav, you have no idea of the fallout from his ideas and beliefs.

Just to be on the other side- my father davened in his shul and admired him. We had all his books and tapes at home.
My father only hit me once in my life, when I was having a psychotic episode and he slapped me trying to bring me back to reality.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:50 pm

amother Smokey wrote:

Wow, this is a wonderful surprise. I am happy for you.
All the children of fellow congregants that I know (dozens of them) were severely beaten on a constant basis.

amother

Bluebonnet

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:54 pm

amother Oleander wrote:

There are sources that say that one that raises a hand on another Jew is a Rasha. There are sources that say that Choshech Shivto is a metaphor and not literal.
There are sources that say it is literal.
People take their actions and justify it with Torah.

It's a ssin not a shin- Chosech shivto soneh bno.
There are a lot of ways to interpret that passuk. Even generations ago, not all the mefarshim explain it as hitting being okay.
Op, if you could get someone learned to give you the clear interpretations of the passuk, some of which do sound like they said hitting is okay and others which say the opposite, you'll get some perspective. Bottom line, if you ask a shayla today from any gadol, I highly doubt he'll tell you hitting is acceptable.
I don't want to specifically discuss the gadol mentioned earlier here as I feel this isn't the right place. I understand you father was his fan. It's a challenge finding the right derech and the right leaders to follow. We all have to use our seichel and find a person we can trust to guide us in our own lives.
I would not waste my breath trying to have discussions with someone who has his mind made up already, especially a parent where you have the added issue of needing to speak with complete respect. It would definitely be more helpful to find a talmid chacham who's willing to take the time to answer your questions.
Imamother is a great place, but not a perfect source for definitive answers on matters of halacha and hashkafa. This says nothing negative about Yael or any of the mods, it wasn't designed as an "ask the rabbi" type of forum.

Congresswoman

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 4:01 pm

amother Daylily wrote:

I very rarely hit but I think the anti spanking camp has gone overboard as well. I’ve seen mothers yell and verbally shame and degrade their kids which is more abusive and can do way more damage than a quick slap when needed. I know there are other options but realistically speaking many parents that aren’t spanking are being verbally abusive.

You must realize that a parent who abusively verbally shames and degrades a child because they don’t believe in hitting, would be the ones to brutally beat up their children had it been ok by them.

They obviously don’t have any empathy for their kids, or they are unable to control their rage.

Therefor your logic is flawed and hitting should not be an option.

amother

Tomato

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 4:07 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

I am very against hitting yet I still think there may be a place for it to prevent a child from life threatening behavior like if a child runs into a road.
My son's Rebbe asked the class last year if there are any kids who's parents never hit them - he said 2 kids raised their hands - him and one other boy. There were probably about 18 kids in the class. That's pretty sad but I know many of these families and I don't think any of their parents are abusive. Some may be a little "old fashioned" in their parenting.

I once observed a woman ‘train’ her toddler not to step onto the road. The child was barely over a year.

Each time the child stepped off the curb she gave her a little slap and put her back onto the sidewalk. This went on for about an hour over a couple of days. After day 3 the child was fully trained and could be trusted completely.

You know who else used to be trained this way? Circus animals.

While it was done pretty gentle and painlessly, I it made me sick to my stomach.

BrisketBoss

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 4:10 pm

amother Tomato wrote:

Yup. Operant conditioning continues to be very popular in dog training and child training. I'm not a fan of it for humans. I'm not even bribing my 3yo with M&Ms to go potty.

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 5:26 pm

Our generation has sensitive neshamos. A potch used to be for chinuch, now instead it deeply pains a child emotionally, psychologically.
Children are pure and innocent. They do not understand being hit as a lesson to teach something. To a child, a potch means you are purposely trying to hurt him. And that hurts worse than you imagine. That the parent who is supposed go be reliable and safe, is now hurting him, and not by accident.

Please do not hit your children. There is no reason to. There are better ways, positive encouraging safe nurturing ways to discipline. In 15+ years I haven't found a good enough reason to purposely hurt my children.

I saw Rabbi Russel came out with a parenting book that looks fantastic. If you need more ideas.

Congresswoman

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 5:29 pm

8x wrote:

Not necessarily true.

Just because mental health awareness wasn’t a thing doesn’t mean it didn’t severely hurt children. In all generations.

amother

Blush

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 5:29 pm

amother Burlywood wrote:

Wow, this is a wonderful surprise. I am happy for you.
All the children of fellow congregants that I know (dozens of them) were severely beaten on a constant basis.

Interesting you say that. My father was a MAJOR Talmid of his and all of us kids. were beaten with belts growing up. I always thought it stemmed from my father being physically abused growing up and this was the natural pattern.

amother

Cornsilk

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 5:35 pm

amother Tomato wrote:

I trained my child this way, but without the hitting.

It was my third child (IIRC). My first child was a near-impossible toddler, so it forced me to learn a lot of parenting methods that I otherwise wouldn't have. One of the main things I struggled with with my first was controlling my need to yell. It said that yelling should be saved only for safety issues, nothing else.

By the time my third child was a toddler, I had successfully overcome my need to yell. He had probably never heard me yell before. He suddenly ran into a parking lot. I caught him, brought him back to the sidewalk, and yelled "NO STREET!" He started bawling hysterically. He'd never heard his mother yell before and was terrified.

The next time he started running towards the street, a few days later, I said firmly "No street" and he started whimpering and ran back to me for hugs and cuddles. You could tell he was still traumatized by my yelling at him.

Did I do the right thing? I don't know. But it was incredible to me, since I had such a problem with yelling at my first and worked so hard on staying calm. Suddenly, yelling had a power that it never would have had if I hadn't saved it for dire situations.

amother

Topaz

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 5:42 pm

amother Tomato wrote:

Do you think this is what I meant? Ch"v! I said there could be a place for it when a child does something life threatening like running into a road, not to smack a child every time he steps off a curb that is extreme negative reinforcement.
You may have missed my first paragraph - my son is 11 and has never been hit, I believe in positive reinforcement, but if a parent hits a child once in a lifetime for doing something extremely dangerous it's not child abuse. And it's important that the child is old enough to know that what they did is dangerous. I once saw a 4 year old run out of a store into a busy street luckily he made it to the other side. Yes he got a potch from his mother and I think that's OK IMHO.

amother

Papayawhip

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 6:30 pm

amother Burlywood wrote:

Wow, this is a wonderful surprise. I am happy for you.
All the children of fellow congregants that I know (dozens of them) were severely beaten on a constant basis.

Don't know what you are talking about. My father davened there, and so did my friends father.

amother

Pear

Wed, Sep 21 2022, 11:50 am

I can’t recall a situation when I felt that hitting my children would be beneficial so I don’t remember ever having done so but I still think for some children “potch therapy” is the right way. E.g If any of my children would have been the class or neighborhood bully I probably would have used some “potch therapy” on them if they continued on that path.( I do not believe that the neighborhood bully must come from an abusive home. The ones I saw mostly had parents who were very permissive. Not strict)

amother

DarkRed

Wed, Sep 21 2022, 11:55 am

amother Topaz wrote:

I’ve hit my kids and I’m ashamed of it. Actively working on it for years. Would be mortified if my kids told me their teacher asked if their parent hit them.

Chayalle

Wed, Sep 21 2022, 11:56 am

amother Pear wrote:

I agree with your last sentence and as I said earlier, I believe that no chinuch is worse than chinuch that includes (mild) hitting.

However, I want to say that if ch'v your kid was the class or neighborhood bully, I doubt "potch therapy" (your words, not mine) would be helpful. Hurt people hurt people. It wouldn't help to hurt them more. (probably would need to find out what is causing their bullying behavior, and get them therapy and into situations that teach empathy....)

amother

Pear

Wed, Sep 21 2022, 12:28 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Not always. Some people are just plain jerks who are going to do whatever they can get away with.
A few smacks will show them their limits.

taketwo

Wed, Sep 21 2022, 12:38 pm

Imo hitting as a means of chinuch comes from a combination of a parents desperation and an ignorance in other ways to work with their child. If you have a greater understanding on how to work with your child you won't get desperate enough to control through physical means. As I say to my kids when they are hitting "let's use our words" the same can be applied to us parents.

Phoebe31

Wed, Sep 21 2022, 1:15 pm

amother Burlywood wrote:

Wow, this is a wonderful surprise. I am happy for you.
All the children of fellow congregants that I know (dozens of them) were severely beaten on a constant basis.

My stepfather was a talmid of his, he controlled us and beat us into submission. Once he passed away and his son in law Rav Brog took over and found out about the abuse, he immediately said something to my stepfather about it. My stepfather left the shul and never went back... imagine the pain that could've been prevented had Rabbi Miller said something sooner!