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S/o wish was kosher



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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Sep 30 2022, 9:18 am
I didn't like how the other thread was getting derailed by the cholov yisroel/cholov stam discussion, so I'm spinning off...

Terms like chumra are used by many without understanding, so a little halacha and history for all:
The halachos of kosher are that one may not eat cholov akum, which is milk that is milked without a jew present to supervise. The reason for this halacha is that one may not be able to tell if the milk was switched for the milk of a non kosher animal. One may only drink what is called cholov yisroel, milk that is watched by a jew to avoid this problem. These are the two terms used in all halachic literature. There are only these two options: cholov yisroel is kosher milk, cholov akum is treif. This was the default for all of history.

Then came the famous "innovation" by R' Moshe. Cholov Yisroel (the only milk considered kosher at the time) was not easy to come by in America at the time. R' Moshe created the term Cholov "stam", to indicate milk that is neither "yisroel" or "akum". He ruled that in the US, because the government regulations are so strict, it would be an unworthwhile risk for milk producers to switch out the milk for a different animal's milk. So he ruled that milk can be "supervised" by the US government instead of a Jew and named this milk "cholov stam". This was a huge groundbreaking heter that gave the masses the ability to get a hold of milk.
Now to get technical with the terms people were using on the other thread.... Those who never accepted this heter as valid are actually just holding by the basic halacha in the shulchan aruch. Deciding not to use a new heter that comes out does not mean that you took a chumra on yourself, it means you are following halacha. And yes, technically if they don't hold of that heter then they don't consider that stuff kosher to eat. That doesn't mean they think you are eating treif - they are aware that you hold there is a heter to eat it and therefore hold that it's kosher.
As an aside, due to many details of R Moshe's heter, there are many who hold that it no longer applies today because of changes in USDA guidelines and oversight. They say that nowadays R Moshe would no longer allow it to be eaten. And also that he said the heter is for places where cholov yisroel is not easily accessible. Which is why you will find many people who stopped eating cholov stam in recent years.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Fri, Sep 30 2022, 12:16 pm
amother OP wrote:
I didn't like how the other thread was getting derailed by the cholov yisroel/cholov stam discussion, so I'm spinning off...

Terms like chumra are used by many without understanding, so a little halacha and history for all:
The halachos of kosher are that one may not eat cholov akum, which is milk that is milked without a jew present to supervise. The reason for this halacha is that one may not be able to tell if the milk was switched for the milk of a non kosher animal. One may only drink what is called cholov yisroel, milk that is watched by a jew to avoid this problem. These are the two terms used in all halachic literature. There are only these two options: cholov yisroel is kosher milk, cholov akum is treif. This was the default for all of history.

Then came the famous "innovation" by R' Moshe. Cholov Yisroel (the only milk considered kosher at the time) was not easy to come by in America at the time. R' Moshe created the term Cholov "stam", to indicate milk that is neither "yisroel" or "akum". He ruled that in the US, because the government regulations are so strict, it would be an unworthwhile risk for milk producers to switch out the milk for a different animal's milk. So he ruled that milk can be "supervised" by the US government instead of a Jew and named this milk "cholov stam". This was a huge groundbreaking heter that gave the masses the ability to get a hold of milk.
Now to get technical with the terms people were using on the other thread.... Those who never accepted this heter as valid are actually just holding by the basic halacha in the shulchan aruch. Deciding not to use a new heter that comes out does not mean that you took a chumra on yourself, it means you are following halacha. And yes, technically if they don't hold of that heter then they don't consider that stuff kosher to eat. That doesn't mean they think you are eating treif - they are aware that you hold there is a heter to eat it and therefore hold that it's kosher.
As an aside, due to many details of R Moshe's heter, there are many who hold that it no longer applies today because of changes in USDA guidelines and oversight. They say that nowadays R Moshe would no longer allow it to be eaten. And also that he said the heter is for places where cholov yisroel is not easily accessible. Which is why you will find many people who stopped eating cholov stam in recent years.


I appreciate your spin off and how clearly you explained this situation. Just one (somewhat minor) correction. R’ Moshe did not (as far as I’m aware) coin the term Chalav Stam. He called it Chalav HaCompanies. This is important to realize because his heter would not apply to many smaller, private dairies, only to those who sell in a manner that is regulated by the USDA.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Fri, Sep 30 2022, 12:30 pm
As someone mentioned on the other thread, there is another reason many people have recently stopped using the heter. There is a procedure that is often done on dairy cows that can render them traifos. Milk from an animal that is a traifa is not kosher(this has nothing to do with cholov yisroel-even if a Jew owns it and milks it it wouldn’t be kosher). The percentage of animals that get the procedure and the percentage that are rendered traifos means there could be a shaila on all milk. When this procedure became popular the cholov Yisroel farms either separated the cows who had the procedure or sold/got rid of them.
I have kept cholov yisroel since I got married (my dh grew up with it in town-I grew up oot where EVERYONE was somech on R’ Moshe’s heter) but when this information came out, we became much more careful. I used to purchase cholov stam for my mother, if she requested it (I often do her shopping). Now I won’t. I buy her the cholov yisroel version or I don’t buy it. We also became more makpid on kailim. DH was willing to eat cholov yisroel cooked by people who generally ate cholov stam before, now we try very hard not to. Not quite to the level of if they generally eat other traif, but majorly different than it was before.

ETA: From my understanding, the rabbonim who still allow cholov stam, do so because they interpret the statistics differently and don’t believe there are enough traifos in the herds to render the milk traif.
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Window




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 30 2022, 1:55 pm
Thanks for sharing. Two important historical points that weren’t mentioned:
-this hetter was for children/babies
-this hetter was for places where cholov Yisroel wasn’t available

I actually live in a place where it’s not available and I have babies. We still don’t rely on this hetter. I don’t think this hetter should apply nowadays because:
-medically, we now know that dairy milk isn’t a necessity for children
-modern-day shipping makes cholov yisroel attainable practically everywhere (although expensive)
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bsy




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 30 2022, 1:59 pm
amother Royalblue wrote:
As someone mentioned on the other thread, there is another reason many people have recently stopped using the heter. There is a procedure that is often done on dairy cows that can render them traifos. Milk from an animal that is a traifa is not kosher(this has nothing to do with cholov yisroel-even if a Jew owns it and milks it it wouldn’t be kosher). The percentage of animals that get the procedure and the percentage that are rendered traifos means there could be a shaila on all milk. When this procedure became popular the cholov Yisroel farms either separated the cows who had the procedure or sold/got rid of them.
I have kept cholov yisroel since I got married (my dh grew up with it in town-I grew up oot where EVERYONE was somech on R’ Moshe’s heter) but when this information came out, we became much more careful. I used to purchase cholov stam for my mother, if she requested it (I often do her shopping). Now I won’t. I buy her the cholov yisroel version or I don’t buy it. We also became more makpid on kailim. DH was willing to eat cholov yisroel cooked by people who generally ate cholov stam before, now we try very hard not to. Not quite to the level of if they generally eat other traif, but majorly different than it was before.

ETA: From my understanding, the rabbonim who still allow cholov stam, do so because they interpret the statistics differently and don’t believe there are enough traifos in the herds to render the milk traif.

I believe for this reason, rabbi Hershel schachter does not eat any milk or dairy products.


Last edited by bsy on Fri, Sep 30 2022, 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Goldie613




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 30 2022, 3:01 pm
Can someone explain what the medical procedure on the cows is?
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amother
Vanilla


 

Post Fri, Sep 30 2022, 3:06 pm
Goldie613 wrote:
Can someone explain what the medical procedure on the cows is?

https://oukosher.org/blog/cons.....-cow/
Displaced Abomasum (DA) - a minor procedure that involves puncturing the stomach to fix its position.

At least one Cholov Yisroel plant I am aware of no longer has any DA cows on premises. Previously they were there, but milked separately not as part of a Cholov Yisroel run.
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