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Making sense of rav's speech
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:09 am
imaima wrote:
By asking Hashem for what you want you proclaim that you admit that He is capable of giving you what you want.

By not asking him (because what if He doesn’t give?) you doubt that He is capable.

That’s why we are supposed to ask him for everything regardless how trivial it is.
Basically it is not like tefilla and mitzvot are a means to an end, but they are also self-transforming. You don’t know what’s inside of everyone, what they davened for any if they got it etc


The Tannaim didn’t act like Hashem was there to service their personal needs. Their philosophy was that if Hashem thought it was good for them, they would have it. You’ll rarely find a vignette where a Tanna asked Hashem for wealth or a shidduch or a business deal to go their way. It was emunah to the next level. They treated tefillah as something to benefit the klal, so most of the “the tefillah was answered” is about rain, or a bad decree.

The Rambam discusses this as well. It’s a hard read, because it’s drastically different than what we were raised to believe.
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amother




Blue
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:12 am
Thisisnotmyreal wrote:
Rude. I don't need to share my list of craziness with you as tempted as I am.

If you knew my life I think you'd get some perspective on where I'm coming from. I stay frum because I believe in the Torah and I look to the people who came before me. Not because I have a place in the frum world because I don't. Though I grew up here. I don't think you have a clue what's that's like, having no security in your life, nothing to ground you, yet hanging on by your fingernails. I live on a tightrope each day.
This rabbi's perspective makes everything about my life seem futile. (I know it's not true because I actually do have emunah. But according to him, I don't.??)
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:13 am
Thisisnotmyreal wrote:
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3372829/jewish/I-Shall-Teach-You-to-Sing.htm

Read it!!



I can appreciate this (although I have some issues) If I understand the rebbe is saying to believe even though it makes no sense to us. Simply have faith. I believe you were saying that things make sense. For example those who have bitochon won't have bad things happen to them. The rebbe isn't saying this. He's saying "just believe".
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:18 am
I clearly outlined the definition of Emuna and bitachon and Geula. These are the tools we use to manage life. Not all at once. Some things require Emuna, some bitachon, some Geula, some all three and some a mix of two. Covid is a perfect example. Everyone was impacted but a Frum yid has the right mindset.

The only benefit I see in looking at other people's pain is learning from them how they managed it. The couple who lost multiple children and grandchildren and yet say "Nothing in this world belongs to us. Not even our children." This is the clearest example of Emuna.

Solomon YouTuber guy who had a really bad year financially and committed to give double the amount of maaser than the previous year and a couple of years afterwards was able to give a quarter of a million dollars to tzedaka - he lived Bitachon.

The person who counts their blessings every day, is completely optimistic and sees Hashem in their lives always. Who feel like they never even lost their loved ones to begin with and celebrate their challenges. Those are the ones living in Geula.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:20 am
amother OP wrote:
I can appreciate this (although I have some issues) If I understand the rebbe is saying to believe even though it makes no sense to us. Simply have faith. I believe you were saying that things make sense. For example those who have bitochon won't have bad things happen to them. The rebbe isn't saying this. He's saying "just believe".


The Rebbe is only addressing Emuna here.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 10:38 am
amother Blue wrote:

This rabbi's perspective makes everything about my life seem futile. (I know it's not true because I actually do have emunah. But according to him, I don't.??)


Please Hashem no more pain!! Blue I can't speak for Hashem. I'm not talking directly to you. That would be toxic positivity. What I am saying is that Torah does say the message of אם בחקותי תלכו. It's part of yiddishkeit that all of our service of Hashem has a positive impact on the world. Galus tries to cover it up as much as possible and we are slowly (quicker Eibershter, quicker!!) shedding the veil that will make it clear that our Service of Hashem impacts our lives in the clearest best way possible. There is a woman who successfully learned the halochos of bowing for shmoneh esray to fix her back problems. The possibility does already exist to see the benefit of our Torah and Mitzvos. I know this is true (it's Torah) but I honestly don't yet relate to it. Still, I would never ever think that just because I am personally having a hard time, to give up or that אם בחקותי תלכו is untrue. I just need to pull out my aleph Beis gimmel tools to cope. The Rav was just imparting the message to keep Torah. That's all he was doing.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 11:26 am
Thisisnotmyreal wrote:
I clearly outlined the definition of Emuna and bitachon and Geula. These are the tools we use to manage life. Not all at once. Some things require Emuna, some bitachon, some Geula, some all three and some a mix of two. Covid is a perfect example. Everyone was impacted but a Frum yid has the right mindset.

The only benefit I see in looking at other people's pain is learning from them how they managed it. The couple who lost multiple children and grandchildren and yet say "Nothing in this world belongs to us. Not even our children." This is the clearest example of Emuna.

Solomon YouTuber guy who had a really bad year financially and committed to give double the amount of maaser than the previous year and a couple of years afterwards was able to give a quarter of a million dollars to tzedaka - he lived Bitachon.

The person who counts their blessings every day, is completely optimistic and sees Hashem in their lives always. Who feel like they never even lost their loved ones to begin with and celebrate their challenges. Those are the ones living in Geula.



I think you shifted from saying "bad things won't happen to those with bitochon" to now saying that bad things happen, but gd fearing people will manage it better because they believe in a higher power. But then you seem to shift back with Solomon the youtube guy who has real bitochon and receives tangible blessings in this world.

I don't think we can pick and choose. Either the bitochon system works and frum jews aren't getting covid, or it doesn't work and solomon the youtuber is merely a single anecdote but not the rule.
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Thisisnotmyreal




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Oct 02 2022, 5:44 pm
amother OP wrote:
I think you shifted from saying "bad things won't happen to those with bitochon" to now saying that bad things happen, but gd fearing people will manage it better because they believe in a higher power. But then you seem to shift back with Solomon the youtube guy who has real bitochon and receives tangible blessings in this world.

I don't think we can pick and choose. Either the bitochon system works and frum jews aren't getting covid, or it doesn't work and solomon the youtuber is merely a single anecdote but not the rule.


I am already coming across as insensitive because I'm discussing this. I want to be clear that I am not defending Hashem. I am not telling anyone they are doing something wrong and I am not ok with bad things happening.

The rule is that Torah works. You are mixing two questions together. 1) Why do bad things happen to good people and 2) does Emuna/bitachon/Geula help someone who is dealing with a bad situation.

The answer to number 2 is yes, solely because Torah is true. Sometimes we see that people who are frum have tragedies and they are erliche Yidden who we know did everything right so that would seem to put everything in question. And I say to that two things.

1. I'm explaining in my first post that it's not meant to be lumped together. Emunah comes first, then bitachon, then it goes back to Emuna or forward to Geula. You seem to lump all three to just mean certainty that things will be as I want and that's just bitachon.

2. We can't really know what's going on in People's hearts. And this is really something that has to be evaluated by each person individually. No one other than themselves and Hashem can say what was in their hearts at the time.

I don't want to come across as insensitive, I am not talking about the past I'm talking to someone who is dealing with something right now. If they want a specific outcome they should 1. Look at people's successes to know how to act. 2. Understand the basic definition of Emuna and bitachon and Geula.

Emunah means to let go. I can only have bitachon if I do the first step of Emuna. Then I can evaluate after the game zeh yaavor how to proceed. Can I turn this into Geula even after the worst? Can I continue to still trust things will improve (Bitachon)? Do I need to just fall back on Emuna again and remember that this is Hashem's world and He does as He wants and ultimately it's for the good?

Bitachon is there for you to prove to yourself how much you can trust Hashem. Other people's/past experiences are just a distraction to your current avoda.
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