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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur
Women bowing on the ground for kor'im
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 7:16 am
Over the years I've noticed that in some shuls most of the women bow on the ground for kor'im, while in others very few do. Is it based on age (not as easy as you get older), tznius, religious background?

What do you do, and what's the norm in your shul, and what type of shul is it?
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Chickensoupprof




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 7:18 am
Yekkish/ashekenazi/orthodox not necessarily yeshivish half the women do.
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amother
Mocha


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 7:34 am
I’m my experience.
And I have Davened in a few shuls
Nobody did it in the chasidish shul I used to daven in. Granted, it was a small shul. Not more than 20 women. The mixed shul I have davened in, I would say about half did it. When I say mixed, I mean chasidish. Litvish and more modern. So that’s what I found.
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amother
Birch


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 7:37 am
Growing up in a chassidish shul, at least half did. I haven’t been to shul in a while so don’t know what’s happening currently.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 7:38 am
I used to when I davened in a shul that had space. The shul I go go now has just room to take three small steps back and forwards before the Amida. I bow as far as possible in the space I have. It isn't the Beit HaMikdash.

Some people do hold it's a tznius issue, I which case the question is whether the act is not tzanua in of itself, or whether clothing may ride up in a revealing manner. It's possible to dress to accommodate it and still remain fully covered, especially since you are surrounded by only women. If it is the a tion of kneeling and prostrating oneself that is felt to not be tzanua then there isn't much to do about it.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 7:38 am
Growing up MO shuls. Many did go to the ground.
Now in a DL community and pretty much the same. Many do but some do not. I might even venture to say most women and girls do.
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miami85




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 7:51 am
In my machzor it says "women should follow the minhag of the shul" so I think it's more based off of when women can see what's going on and realize they are supposed to be doing it too. Some places it's just not possible or practical for women to do cor'im properly.

In my shul growing up it grew in popularity to do full cor'im and they would hand out the "page numbers" as things to cover the ground. But the women were in a balcony so could see what the men were doing it, in the balcony it was just too narrow for us to bow.

A shul I davened at as an adult where the women couldn't see a thing and when I spoke to some males who davened there, they had no clue that the women weren't fully bowing and women had no idea it was happening.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 8:11 am
In our DL shul, women bow on the ground (except those who are unable to due to age/lack of mobility).
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amother
DarkYellow


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 8:22 am
In the shul I grew up in that comprised mainly of Europe holocaust survivors and a mixture of chassidish and heimish, many of the women did. I live in Israel now in a litvish community and have davened in several shuls over the years and have yet to see anyone do it.
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amother
Melon


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 9:18 am
The JPF Ashkenazi shul I grew up in nobody did. In later years I noticed one woman who did but IDK if it was a new thing or if she'd been doing this all along and I never noticed. The JPF Ashkenazi shul I joined 40 years ago no one did that I can recall until about 15-20 years ago when there was a large influx of new people who did. After that I noticed quite a few older women doing so, too, who I'm quite sure didn't use to. At this point almost all do except those who are clearly unable. However, I refuse. It wasn't the custom here years ago, it was never my custom, and I see no reason to change my practice just because a bunch of newcomers came in and brought their practices with them. I've noticed a lot of "extra" stuff--nothing halachic, but various actions that I consider "frummy shtick" you should excuse the expression, that came in with the incoming crowd and was picked up by many of the senior members, but I have no intention of adopting any of them, ever.

When I first saw women on the floor, I thought it was quite untzanua. I looked it up and read that, in fact, women should not for reasons of tznius.
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amother
DarkYellow


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 9:24 am
amother Melon wrote:
The JPF Ashkenazi shul I grew up in nobody did. In later years I noticed one woman who did but IDK if it was a new thing or if she'd been doing this all along and I never noticed. The JPF Ashkenazi shul I joined 40 years ago no one did that I can recall until about 15-20 years ago when there was a large influx of new people who did. After that I noticed quite a few older women doing so, too, who I'm quite sure didn't use to. At this point almost all do except those who are clearly unable. However, I refuse. It wasn't the custom here years ago, it was never my custom, and I see no reason to change my practice just because a bunch of newcomers came in and brought their practices with them. I've noticed a lot of "extra" stuff--nothing halachic, but various actions that I consider "frummy shtick" you should excuse the expression, that came in with the incoming crowd and was picked up by many of the senior members, but I have no intention of adopting any of them, ever.

When I first saw women on the floor, I thought it was quite untzanua. I looked it up and read that, in fact, women should not for reasons of tznius.

The thought of everyone copying the newcomers made me chuckle. Over the years I've noticed in my shul that the women stand less and less. It used to be that everyone stood every time the Aron was opened which could mean for very lengthy periods. Lately it's for the major tefillos only. I guess a few of the ladies who sit up front got older and tireder and everyone just follows suit.
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amother
Celeste


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 9:24 am
I grew up MO and I never saw any women doing it during my childhood. I'm in my 60's now. Most men did. Until one Yom Kipper a younger sister of a friend came back from her year in Israel laid a paper towel on the ground to prepare. We all stared at her. Then she bowed to the ground. Our mouths dropped (bunch of yentas that we are.) After that it became more and more popular.
I still don't but at this point and in a different country it's very popular. My girls do.
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amother
Blushpink


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 9:26 am
I don't see a tznius problem with it and used to do it, but I would not do it now due to aftereffects of a knee injury. I try to avoid squatting or kneeling on the ground, because doing so creates about a 50/50 chance of painfully popping my knee out. When that happens, I have to roll over and stretch my leg in front of me to pop the knee back in, which is just awkward and unpleasant to do in public.

I am relatively young and don't have any observable mobility issues that would make you think I'm avoiding the floor for a medical reason.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 9:33 am
miami85 wrote:
In my machzor it says "women should follow the minhag of the shul" so I think it's more based off of when women can see what's going on and realize they are supposed to be doing it too.


I think family minhag comes into play as well (my family minhag is that women do not go down on the floor. Just bow deeply while standing in place.)

I grew up davening in a shul that was a mixture of JPF/yeshivish/heimish. Most women did not go down on the floor, but there definitely were a few who did. I always assumed it was their family minhag.

In my present shul (also a mixture, yeshivish/JPF), I noticed only one family of women who went down on the floor. I think it's beautiful, but not my minhag so I don't do it.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 10:15 am
amother Melon wrote:
When I first saw women on the floor, I thought it was quite untzanua. I looked it up and read that, in fact, women should not for reasons of tznius.
But what is untzanua about bowing with one's whole body? Nothing should be showing.
Can I ask where you read that women should not bow? I would assume that if it is a real issue rabbanim would actually say something.
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amother
Melon


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 10:20 am
amother DarkYellow wrote:
The thought of everyone copying the newcomers made me chuckle. Over the years I've noticed in my shul that the women stand less and less. It used to be that everyone stood every time the Aron was opened which could mean for very lengthy periods. Lately it's for the major tefillos only. I guess a few of the ladies who sit up front got older and tireder and everyone just follows suit.


TTYTT I think a lot of it has to do with being unsure of yourself and assuming that "everyone else" knows better than you do. I remember going to school on some minor Taanis, maybe Asarah beTeves, and the chumash teacher asking the class if they had brushed their teeth and washed their faces that morning. A bunch of girls said they hadn't because it was a taanis, and I just shut my mouth because I had. AFAIK the only issurim were eating and drinking, but if all these girls skipped the morning ablutions, maybe I was misled? The teacher then told them all to go to the bathroom and wash up. That taught me to have greater faith in myself and not assume that everyone knows better than I do. And then there were certain other things that people did that we didn't, or said weren't allowed that we did, and I figured my parents were just less frum or less knowledgeable, till years later I found out those things were minhagim among people who came from regions different from ours. My schools were pretty heterogeneous and even attracted a few students of Spanish/Portuguese and Mizrachi descent . But of course most kids and even adults don't say "This is a _______ custom" or "this is my family custom"; most people will tell you this is the way it's done, period. And even in school or in Shabbos groups or whatever, at least in my experience, those in authority will usually say "this is how it's done" or even "this is the halacha" when it may well be only a custom and quite possibly only a custom among people of a certain background.
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amother
Papaya


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 10:39 am
Sephardi yeshivishe, of Persian descent. All women in my shul do.
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amother
Tealblue


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 11:06 am
Thank you OP, I wanted to make a poll on this but never got to it.
I grew up in Brooklyn, yeshivish shul only a few women did.
When we moved to our OOT mixed/yeshivish shul literally everyone bowed. we asked our Rav and he said if my mother and grandmother didn't do it me and my daughters shouldn't. As the years have gone by and the shul changed there are more women who don't bow thought the vast majority still do.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 11:13 am
amother DarkYellow wrote:
The thought of everyone copying the newcomers made me chuckle. Over the years I've noticed in my shul that the women stand less and less. It used to be that everyone stood every time the Aron was opened which could mean for very lengthy periods. Lately it's for the major tefillos only. I guess a few of the ladies who sit up front got older and tireder and everyone just follows suit.


Yes, I've noticed that. When I was growing up it was a given that you stood up right through Neilah. Most people stood up already at Ashrei, and the rest stood up for Kaddish, and then that was it until after tekiyot. Yesterday out of about 200 women, not more than twenty or thirty stood up right through.
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amother
Canary


 

Post Thu, Oct 06 2022, 11:20 am
Baltimommy here. Every shul I've ever been to in town, almost all of the women bow all the way down. I bow low but not all the way down because it's not my husband's minhag for women. But from oldest to youngest, just about all the women bow. I do not think this is a new thing at all, like someone suggested upthread.
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