Inappropriate behavior in the tanach

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shaqued_almond

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 10:44 pm

Today I read that Shlomo haMelech became idol worshiper at the end of his life because he had a bunch of wives that worshiped idols. I vaguely had remembered this account but it made me wonder why there's so many instances of Jewish community leaders no less that did inappropriate things like idol worship, intermarriage or that bnei Israel went along with it. Which begs the question why? Anyone who's ever read the chumash would know how severe this is. Maybe someone who's more learned than me can explain woz tut sich doh?

behappy2

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 10:50 pm

Yetzer hora

imasinger

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 10:58 pm

I believe the commonly accepted interpretation here is that he didn't stop his wives from doing avoda zara, and, as he was held to a stricter standard, it was as if he did it himself.

But yes, power corrupts.

b.chadash

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 11:33 pm

There's a Chazal that says that anyone who thinks that Reuvein sinned is mistaken. One who thinks Dovid Hamelech sinned is mistaken. Same goes for Bnei Eli. And there's a whole list of people who are included in this. (I don't remember if Shlomo is on the list but this idea would apply to him as well. )

At first, it seems like Chazal are covering up for these people. Why shouldn't I believe something that says explicitly in the Torah?

Rav Dessler has a whole essay on this , explaining that the language of the Torah is not human language, but rather divine language. Chazal act as interpreters, explaining the words we read to regular people.

For example, if someone says about another person that he is an honest person, you would not know precisely what that means if you didn't know the speaker's standards. If the speaker is a scrupulously honest person, it means one thing. But if the speaker is himself a thief or liar, him calling a third person honest may not mean very much.

So we need to understand that Hashem's standars are the highest possible standards, not human standards. Chazal give us context.

I believe Imasinger gave the conventional understanding, that it wasn't Shlomo who sinned, but some of his wives. But, according to the strict standard of Hashem, he is held accountable.

Hashem holds Tzaddikim to a much higher standard than regular peiple. ("Like a hairsbreadth")

Coffee3

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 11:35 pm

Later the rabbanim asked HaShem to take away the yesterday horah for avoda zara because they weren’t able to overcome it.
I also think it shows we are human. We make mistakes. Not a complete answer to your question

Flip Flops

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 11:36 pm

Before you continue with this thread, I just want to remind everyone that we are speaking of holy people in tanach. We cannot even relate to this level, and for sure not chas v'shalom compare it to our generation.

shaqued_almond

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 11:37 pm

b.chadash wrote:

But in the commentary of the tanach he is criticized for it. I wonder if there's dispute about the interpretation that they were flawless.

tichellady

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 11:42 pm

I don’t really understand the question. we are all human. we all sin. I don’t think anyone today could understand the draw to idolatry in those times. I certainly don’t. but we all have our own version of idols today

b.chadash

Sat, Oct 08 2022, 11:53 pm

shaqued_almond wrote:

But in the commentary of the tanach he is criticized for it. I wonder if there's dispute about the interpretation that they were flawless.

Thanks for giving me a chance to clarify.

What Chazal are saying is that they didn’t sin in the way it appears in the text. The text describes a very egregious sin, something none of us would do. But that's not to be taken literally.

Chofni and Pinchas did not actually, literally sleep with the women who came to bring Korbanos. Dovid did not commit adultery. Reuvein did not sleep with his father's wives. B'nei Yisroel did not take the spoils from of Yericho.

Yes, Hashem found fault with them, obviously. But on our level it would not be considered a fault. And it wasn't the sin as described in the text. The sin described in the text is the extreme of a much lesser wrongdoing.

This is not to say they were flawless. It is merely to say you are mistaken if you take the text literally.

For example, Chofni and Pinchas delayed the women bringing korbanos after birth, causing them to sleep in the area overnight rather than go home. Consequently, they couldn't be with their husbands that night. It comes out that, due to their actions, the kohanim inadvertently caused a husband and wife to be apart from each other. They are blamed for interfering in the marital relations of these couples. The extreme of interfering in the marriage of another couple is adultery. So the text charges them with the sin of sleeping with the women, when in reality, what they did was not allow them to go back to their husbands. All if these sins can be explained similarly.

It doesn't mean they did not do wrong. It means they didn't do the sin as it's written in the text. And because they were so great, the wrong they did was akin to a regular person comitting adultery. Thats why they had to do teshuva for the wrong that they did.

The essay I'm referring to is in Michtav M'Eliyahu, and called "chataeihem shel gedolei olam."

(Slightly edited the end)

Last edited by b.chadash on Sun, Oct 09 2022, 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

DrMom

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 12:05 am

Flip Flops wrote:

Some people in the Tanach sinned. They were human. We all are.

mom_13

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 12:14 am

I'd love to understand why this was reported. By reporting it not only is nothing being accomplished, it is the very antithesis of Judaism. This isn't xtianity. A jew with questions is a 'holech', always leveling up to understand the what and why behind their doings. I think that everything was out in the Torah for a reason. The parts that describe the sins of our ancestors serves two purposes, at least to me. 1) To illustrate what not to do and 2) to show the humanity of the previous generations. The way we are taught in mainstream schools that sanitizes the Torah is really a disservice, because if somebody slips up then they think they're not worthy. Trust me on this, I was that kid. Tyh that I was able to stay religious by finding a mentor that explained to me how questions aren't a bad thing.

b.chadash

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 12:24 am

mom_13 wrote:

I agree with you that questions are a good thing, and integral to understanding the Torah.

I don't know if mainstream schools "sanitize" the Torah, but rather, they attempt to teach concepts that may be above the level of the students.

To teach the story k'pshuto is wrong, as it's not meant to be taken literally.

To say that they never sinned is also wrong, since the Torah clearly said they sinned.

Instead teachers try to impart the idea that it's not something we can understand yet, and hopefully, as the student matures, they can revisit those difficult to understand parts of the Torah and gain a deeper understanding.

The beauty of reading the Torah in a cycle is that each year you have a new opportunity to encounter the same parasha and gain new insights. It never gets stale.

Aurora

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 1:13 am

I think that to say that Dovid Hamelech never sinned negates the absolute magnitude of his teshuva.

His greatness was not in never falling - but look at how he rises. He is the first person in Tanakh, when confronted with his error, to do a full teshuva. And to say he never sinned removes that incredible strength.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 1:55 am

Flip Flops wrote:

The tanach is FILLED with people who did things that make them imperfect.

DrMom

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 2:15 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

The tanach is FILLED with people who did things that make them imperfect.

Yes this.

We're reading Beresheit soon. Hello? Adam and Chava didn't sin? How much would you have to twist the pshat to arrive at this conclusion?

zaq

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 2:54 am

Don't be mealy-mouthed; call it what it is: apparently sinful behavior on the part of otherwise righteous people in Tanach. "Inappropriate behavior" would be talking while a leader (whether priest, prophet, judge or king)is addressing the nation or failing to stand in his or her presence.

shaqued_almond

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 5:24 am

zaq wrote:

Imo sinful is worse than inappropriate because it makes a definite judgement of wrongdoing.

shaqued_almond

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 5:29 am

mom_13 wrote:

It's kind of funny to me that it was reported. It's like reporting literal Torah commentary. For example it says Shlomo married an Egyptian princess and in the commentary it states that she got a giur from a minor rabbinical court but never fully abandoned her idolatry, which is why they're don't state in the pshat that she became Jewish.
Thank you for sharing your story. I'm glad you stayed religious.

shaqued_almond

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 5:31 am

tichellady wrote:

You have a point. It just baffled me how this happened with someone so spiritually high.

LovesHashem

Sun, Oct 09 2022, 6:22 am

shaqued_almond wrote:

You have a point. It just baffled me how this happened with someone so spiritually high.

Well I learned idol worship was a big yetzer hará back then because it actually worked. If you prayed and did things for idols it changed the tevah and actually had results.

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