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Sad Saga about a car: A Cautionary Tale [Update]
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amother




Pewter
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 9:27 am
Imaima,
OP isn’t saying she’s upset the guy is blaming her daughter instead of her, the mother. She is upset that he’s blaming the daughter for causing the car not to work, when that’s not at all the case.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 9:34 am
amother Goldenrod wrote:
Actually I guess I have poor comprehension, I apologize.
You said you spoke to a Dayan. But you didn’t actually call him to Bais din.
Once you call him to bais din, you are then free to pursue legal action.
You said you spoke to people, but you didn’t say you spoke with a lawyer who specializes in this area.
Lemon Law does apply to used cars, as far as I can tell, so I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t.
You didn’t mention if you called your credit cards consumer protection department.
Your desire to avoid machlokes is laudable, but you do have options; you’re just not willing to pursue them and that’s fine, I respect that a lot, kol hakavod. For real.
Based on what you wrote, you were clearly scammed and cheated and it would seem you would have some form of buyer protection and recourse if you wished to pursue it.
Hatzlacha.


Thanks.
Its not poor comprehension. I just think when you're on the other side of things, it sounds like there MUST be something you can do. But on my side of things, whoever I turned to basically said I have no case.

There is a law. The law says that the car is sold "As Is". If he sold me a car that stopped working 5 minutes after buying it, it would be too bad on me. (I did not know this before allowing my daughter to buy the car.) The bais din will not summon someone to court when they don't feel there is sufficient grounds to say he knowingly sold me a broken car. There are all sorts of associated costs involved for the bais din. The car worked for 3 weeks before breaking the first time.

My daughter used a debit card, not credit card. I don't know if there is consumer protection or how it works. I can look into that.

I undersand that the Lemon Law is different in each state. In my state, it would not apply in this case.

Thanks to all you imas for taking the time to read and respond. I will try to call another lawyer today to see if he can tell me something different. If yes, It may change the way the bais din views it.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 9:41 am
amother Pewter wrote:
Imaima,
OP isn’t saying she’s upset the guy is blaming her daughter instead of her, the mother. She is upset that he’s blaming the daughter for causing the car not to work, when that’s not at all the case.


Exactly. It's not between me or my daughter. It's his whole mehalech.

This is sort of a side point to the whole story, but his "bedside manner" is very aggravating. His MO is to take whatever information you give him and use it to blame you, no matter how ridiculous.

It's somehow our fault that the car broke, the key broke, the computer got messed up, smoke coming from the car, Chaveirim. Everyone else is at fault, but not that he sold us a broken car.

And by the way, it wouldn't have hurt if he had apologized last Wednesday for the trouble we went through to come out to his shop to pick up the car (because he told us the car was fixed!), only to leave empty handed. (And this is after 3 weeks of waiting.) Or for the 400 dollars she shelled out for the parts.

He came to talk to me in the car, my baby was howling in the back, I was obviously frustrated, and all he did was lecture me that I was being ungrateful. An apology would have been nice. But I guess I'm asking too much.
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amother




Garnet
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 9:51 am
amother Viola wrote:
The pasty about not joining a class action lawsuit. Or collaborating with others that he scammed.

If you can prove a pattern where many cars he sold never worked. That can theoretically prove mekach taus? I would think.

I’m sorry for this terrible experience. Do you have the money to just pay this off if you can’t find a way out?
Yes it seems like showing a pattern would be very important. If this is his MO, that is illegal and he needs to be shut down. If yours were an isolated case then yes, you just had bad mazel and tough luck. But it sounds like it’s not.
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amother




Cantaloupe
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 10:15 am
amother Apple wrote:
Lemon law doesn't apply to used cars.
(Which is mentioned in the thread, but why bother reading it if someone will give you the cliff notes Banging head )


It does in many cases.
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dena613




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 11:22 am
my vantage point my options are:
1. Keep calling him and hopefully he will soon repair the car for real, at which point I will sell it back to him. The will be a loss, but at least I'll get it off my hands. I can also try to shop around for someone who will pay more.

2. Call him, tell him I feel I have been wronged, and ask him to come to a rabbi to mediate. This is what the dayan advised. But I am very skeptical that he would agree. More likely, I see him becoming very insulted and insisting I take the car off his lot and never call him again.


That was a quote by OP.

I don't like option 1. He will charge you to try to fix an unfixable car (what chutzpah to charge for parts when they didn't help! How you didn't pay the $400) and then you'll get the zechus of "selling it back to him". Um no, he won't be able to fix it and won't want to buy it back.

2. What's so terrible about him being insulted and insisting you take the car off his lot, and never call him again.
You'll make a few hundred dollars off junking it and give another frum person business (they do it nationwide).

I think that what mags it sticky is your position in the community, which I assume means your husband is a rov or principal or head of a frum organization...
Can you pretend you and your husband were any mr.and mrs. Cohen/Schwartz/weiss/ etc.
What would you do then?
What would your husband have advised them?
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 11:53 am
amother OP wrote:
I believe the Lemon law only applies to new cars. This is a used car.



https://www.njconsumerlawyer.c......html
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 12:11 pm
dena613 wrote:
my vantage point my options are:
1. Keep calling him and hopefully he will soon repair the car for real, at which point I will sell it back to him. The will be a loss, but at least I'll get it off my hands. I can also try to shop around for someone who will pay more.

2. Call him, tell him I feel I have been wronged, and ask him to come to a rabbi to mediate. This is what the dayan advised. But I am very skeptical that he would agree. More likely, I see him becoming very insulted and insisting I take the car off his lot and never call him again.


That was a quote by OP.

I don't like option 1. He will charge you to try to fix an unfixable car (what chutzpah to charge for parts when they didn't help! How you didn't pay the $400) and then you'll get the zechus of "selling it back to him". Um no, he won't be able to fix it and won't want to buy it back.

2. What's so terrible about him being insulted and insisting you take the car off his lot, and never call him again.
You'll make a few hundred dollars off junking it and give another frum person business (they do it nationwide).


I think that what mags it sticky is your position in the community, which I assume means your husband is a rov or principal or head of a frum organization...
Can you pretend you and your husband were any mr.and mrs. Cohen/Schwartz/weiss/ etc.
What would you do then?
What would your husband have advised them?

I don't understand the bolded.

I don't know if I would do differently if my husband and I were Mr and Mrs. Cohn. I'm not sure what there is to do. You can always try to be nasty or threatening, but it doesn't always get you very far.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 1:21 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
https://www.njconsumerlawyer.com/used-car-lemon-law.html


Thanks, Naturalmom5.
This is only for New Jersey, and I don't live there.
I am trying to contact a new lawyer. I reached out to a lawyer I know, who said he will post it on a group with other lawyers to see if anyone deals with this area of law.
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cbsp




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 1:51 pm
amother OP wrote:
Thanks.
Its not poor comprehension. I just think when you're on the other side of things, it sounds like there MUST be something you can do. But on my side of things, whoever I turned to basically said I have no case.

There is a law. The law says that the car is sold "As Is". If he sold me a car that stopped working 5 minutes after buying it, it would be too bad on me. (I did not know this before allowing my daughter to buy the car.) The bais din will not summon someone to court when they don't feel there is sufficient grounds to say he knowingly sold me a broken car. There are all sorts of associated costs involved for the bais din. The car worked for 3 weeks before breaking the first time.

My daughter used a debit card, not credit card. I don't know if there is consumer protection or how it works. I can look into that.

I undersand that the Lemon Law is different in each state. In my state, it would not apply in this case.

Thanks to all you imas for taking the time to read and respond. I will try to call another lawyer today to see if he can tell me something different. If yes, It may change the way the bais din views it.


There's a lemon law lawyer on YouTube named Steve Lehto. He has numerous videos that are truly enlightening.

Here's his video explaining that "as is" means:

https://youtu.be/sSsOy9zUA4k



He has many many many more super informative videos on his channels about buying used cars and what certified pre owned means, and how the dealer is generally on the hook for nothing.

OP, I feel for you and your daughter, this is a tough situation to be in. Maybe something in these videos can help you.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 2:35 pm
cbsp wrote:
There's a lemon law lawyer on YouTube named Steve Lehto. He has numerous videos that are truly enlightening.

Here's his video explaining that "as is" means:

https://youtu.be/sSsOy9zUA4k



He has many many many more super informative videos on his channels about buying used cars and what certified pre owned means, and how the dealer is generally on the hook for nothing.

OP, I feel for you and your daughter, this is a tough situation to be in. Maybe something in these videos can help you.


Wow! This was a very informative video! Thank you!
It doesn't change my case at all, but at least I know the limitations of "as is". The whole "ethics" discussion made me squirm. I have always heard the idea that "lawyers are Liars" but now I see how ubiquitous it is. I imagine that it's very hard to make it as a lawyer and keep your principles intact.
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amother




Stonewash
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 2:43 pm
Since it doesn't look like this dealer is helping you in any way and is just squeezing more money out of you, maybe you should take the car to a different mechanic that specializes in this car brand? At least try to get the car to work if you anyways aren't getting your money back.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 2:56 pm
amother Stonewash wrote:
Since it doesn't look like this dealer is helping you in any way and is just squeezing more money out of you, maybe you should take the car to a different mechanic that specializes in this car brand? At least try to get the car to work if you anyways aren't getting your money back.


Funny you should say this.
I sent the car to him originally because the assumption was he would fix the car for free. The first time the car had an issue, he had it towed and fixed for free. He also replaced the faulty part without charging me at all.

This time when it broke down, I first had it towed to a place nearby because I figured maybe it's a little thing and I won't bother Mike.

The nearby mechanic could not get it to start (and did not charge me). I called Mike to tell him and he said, "I don't know what kind oof mechanic he is that he can't fix a simple problem. You are welcome to bring it to me and I'll take care of it for you."

So I had it towed to him. And the rest of the story you know.

But it's funny you should say this now because I was thinking that on the one hand, I should just deal with my own mechanic. On the other, if this case ever comes to a court of law, I'm sure he would say that the mechanic I brought it to broke it. And I would have no way to prove otherwise.

Now however, other than the brief time the car was by a local mechanic and they couldn't do anything, I only ever use Mike's shop.

But you're right. If I have to, I can try to bring it to the manufacturer of this brand. This was actually the suggestion of the first mechanic.
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