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Sad Saga about a car: A Cautionary Tale [Update]
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Oct 21 2022, 5:25 pm
notshanarishona wrote:
Not all used cars are the same, their is a world of a difference between a 2020 car with 20,000 miles and a 2001 car with 180,000 miles. Your thinking is very black and white that you dealt with one dishonest dealer and made the mistake of not getting a second opinion and some form of limited warranty and therefore you can never buy a used car again. Most people survive just fine on used cars. Just do your homework next time, especially with current costs of leasing.
A debit card is very different than a credit card.
Also maybe ask a rav if you can spread your experience with the dealers name, any dealer who sells a car that lasts less than a month and refuses to refund in full should be out of business.


The black and white thinking is because the trick in not getting another lemon is "do your homework." But in order to do the homework, one has to first learn the material. One has to sit through the class and understand what is being taught. Then the homework takes time to do.

I'm not sure that I have the time or headspace right now to do all that.
As you said, many factors need to be considered, including: the make and model of the car, the year, the mileage, it's history, whether the car is foreign or American, the warrantee, and the cost vs. the cost of buying or leasing a new car. So for me, that's a lot of information to calculate. I wish there was a computer program that you could input all the information and it would instantly tell you whether or not it was a good buy.

And yes, sometimes you get so burned that you resort to black and white thinking so as not to risk being burned again.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Oct 21 2022, 5:32 pm
Update: I messaged him twice today to ask what the story is.

He just left me a voice note saying that his guys have not been able to figure out the electrical issue with the key. He also snuck in that "this sometimes happens when you let it linger and she let it linger" meaning he is blaming my daughter for not bringing it in sooner. "Especially with these types of cars, with electrical issues it can turn into a mess."

He finished by saying that he is very backed up with work but he is making this his highest priority, "Just so you know, and Shabbat Shalom. "

I feel my blood pressure rising.
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amother




Mintgreen
 

Post Fri, Oct 21 2022, 5:35 pm
I didn't follow the whole thread but this has nothing to do with a used car. You didn't so any research into the car at all and expected the seller to tell you about it. You should have brought it to your own mechanic and had it checked out. In addition, even new cars can have issues.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Oct 21 2022, 6:14 pm
This situation is aggravating enough as is, but I just realized something that is really making me infuriated: The constant insinuation on the part of seller that somehow this is my daughter's fault. It just hit me and I realized why this is so infuriating.

This started even the first time that the car had issues. This was about two weeks after she came home with the car. However, for one week (about 5 days, including shabbos), the car was not in use because my daughter went OOT. The car sat idle. She came back and used it for a day or two, and then thecar started smoking. I mentioned this to the lady agent who serviced my daughter, in order to point out that she got barely a week out of the car, because for a few days she wasn't even here! She took that information and used it as an attack of sorts saying that it probably broke down because a car like this is not supposed to be idle. It's supposed to be in use, otherwise it can ruin the engine. Seriously??? I know I don't know much about cars, but do I really sound that dumb??

And mind you, she repeated that line several times.

Now, the car isn't starting. Even before the seller got the car, he already tried hinting that maybe the Chaveirim guy broke something when he tried to boost the car, or maybe he broke the key- causing it not to connect with the computer. As if there couldnt possibly be anything wromg with the car itself, and someone must have ruined a perfectly good car. And now, he is blaming my daughter for not bringing in the car soon enough, and letting it "linger". You would think she let the problem linger for 3 months, like a cavity that turned into a root canal.

I am realizing why this makes me mad, because it's so obvious that the car is junk, but instead of owning up to it, he is throwing around blame.

I was ready to give him the benefit of the doubt. But this is about as much as I could take.

I know it's my fault. My fault lies in buying the car from him and not doing the research. The other things he is blaming us for are completely ludicrous.
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 6:20 pm
I'm coming back to update this sad saga. Unfortunately, it only gets sadder.

After we towed the car to the shop of the frum dealer (henceforth to be known as Mike) , they too could not figure out what was wrong. That was October 20th. After a week, he admitted to me that he was too swamped to work on the car. And all this time I am without a car, because I gave mine to my daughter. Good thing he didnt charge me for long-term parking. After that, I called him every other day to ask him for an update. (The squeaky wheel and all that....)

We also decided that we don't want to keep the car, seeing that we did not have the stomach to deal with a car that had so many issues. My daughter asked Mike if he would just buy it back, and he said that he would not buy a car that did not work, and nor would any other dealer. And seeing that the car was currently sitting in his shop, as yet unrepaired, we were basically with our hands tied

She asked him how much he would buy it back for, once it was running again. He named a sum which was just over half of what she paid in late August. So she was expected to take a loss in the thousands of dollars. Unless we could find another dealer who would offer more. We intended to try.

Finally, more than three weeks to the day that he got the car, Mike called my daughter to tell her it's ready to be picked up. That was on a Friday. Yay!

My daughter joked that the car will probably break the second she drives it off the parking lot. Actually, it was no joke, but I'm getting ahead of myself

It took until Wednesday for us to get ourselves to his shop. His shop is a 45 minute drive from my house, and we had to make arrangements for the other kids when they came home from school, only taking the baby with us.

By the time we arrived, baby fell asleep in the car so she went into the office by herself. They charged her 400 for the repairs, which she paid. Then, key in hand, she went out to her car. But, alas, it would not start. Can't Believe It You knew this was coming, right?

She went back in and told him that the car doesn't start. He said, "Well, it was sitting here for a week".
Confused, she said, "so you're saying if the car sits for a week, it breaks down?"

He started giving other excuses to which she replied that the bottom line is that it's not working and that's all she cares about. He retorted that the bottom line is that he is only trying to help and she was being rude and ungrateful.

She came back into my car crying from the sheer stress of it. I called him, he gave me the same excuses. Long story short, the mechanic came back, could not start the car, but promised it would be resolved by the next day.

Well, its over a week since then and the car is still sitting there...and it won't start. It's over a month since the car has been in his shop.

Yesterday someone forwarded me a message she saw somewhere that someone was asking for victims of this particular business to contact him. He is working with an attorney to see if they could prove a pattern. He claimed to have backing from his rav. I contacted him but he wouldn't give the name of the rav who gave the heter. So I called a rav I know who deals in choshen mishpat shailos, and he advised me not to collaborate with someone who would go to secular courts. He said we may only go to secular courts after the guy refuses to go to Bais Din.

So I took the time to tell him the whole story and asked him if I had any case. After thinking about it for a bit, he concluded that, sad as it is, there really are no grounds for a bais din to summon Mike. Still, he advised that I ask him if he would be amenable to mediation with a Rav.

I'm nervous to do that, because I think it might just make things worse. The position Mike has is that he is going above and beyond trying to help me, when he owes me nothing. He does not have to help me, but he is happy to do so. He is probably a lamed vavnik.

Well, that's where things stand at this point. Thanks for reading, those of you who have made it this far...
Hopefully things can only go up from here.
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dena613




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 6:42 pm
Mike doesn't view himself as a tzafik going lifnim mishuras hadin.
That is your incredible ayin tova and Dan lekaf zechus talking.

Just because he acting like he feels bad and it's trying to help you didn't mean he feels bad

He sold you a lemon and tried to do so again!!!
He is UNTRUSTWORTHY an is PREYING of your gutzkeit
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ra_mom




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 6:56 pm
He's garbage. His car is garbage.

I don't know how much your daughter paid for this car. But at this point I might just leave the car in his lot and never speak to him again. Take the loss. Post reviews on whichever sites have listings to his business.

Then close the door so that I don't have to stress about it anymore.

I am so sorry. ❤️
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amother




Garnet
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:01 pm
He is one of those slimy used car salesmen that all the cliches are built off of. The fact that he pretends to be frum doesn’t change who he really is. You and your daughter were scammed multiple times.

The psak you got doesn’t ring right to me. Is this a posek who specializes in this particular area of choshen mishpat?
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amother




Cadetblue
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:05 pm
I’m SO sorry to her this crazy story, it only got crazier as I read on! I hope he at least reimbursed the last $400 (or at least you disputed the charge on cc)

So sad how delusional he can be about the car he sold. I’d imagine most dealers give at least a year warranty, no?! Forsure a few months!! What a big headache!
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amother




Ballota
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:07 pm
https://www.bbb.org/file-a-com.....D_BwE
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:44 pm
Personally I would go to the BBB or a show that has a daily segment of business scams
This guy needs major publicity , nothing else will work

Or just be a tzadik walk away from it and be mochel everyone..
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amother




Lightyellow
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:07 pm
OT but OP I hope you author books.
Also, no offense, but it reminds me of a sad long winded thread that was recently removed. Just because of the good writing skills.
Are they all fictional?
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:08 pm
dena613 wrote:
Mike doesn't view himself as a tzafik going lifnim mishuras hadin.
That is your incredible ayin tova and Dan lekaf zechus talking.

Just because he acting like he feels bad and it's trying to help you didn't mean he feels bad

He sold you a lemon and tried to do so again!!!
He is UNTRUSTWORTHY an is PREYING of your gutzkeit


Dena, I can't know how he views himself, but I know what he says. He (correctly) says that the law is that once the car is driven off the lot, his responsibility ends. Therefore, if I come back to him with a problem, he can say too bad, not my responsibility. And yet, he tries to help his customers, even fixing their cars at no charge, even a year after they buy the car. That is why he sees himself as someone going lifnim meshuras hadin.

I know this is true, because I spoke to several people about it, including a lawyer. The contract clearly favors the seller.

So, I should be grateful, he says, that he is fixing my car.

Also, my understanding is that he did not charge for the repair. (The charge was for parts, not labor.) The problem here is that because he isn't making money off me, he isn't prioritizing it. Therefore it sits on his lot day after day.
He did say once "Trust me, I want this car out of here, more than you want it back. I have no room for it."
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:10 pm
ra_mom wrote:
He's garbage. His car is garbage.

I don't know how much your daughter paid for this car. But at this point I might just leave the car in his lot and never speak to him again. Take the loss. Post reviews on whichever sites have listings to his business.

Then close the door so that I don't have to stress about it anymore.

I am so sorry. ❤️


My daughter said the same. I told her that he will charge her for using his lot as a parking garage if we do that.
Plus, she is in contract to pay this up for the next 3 or 4 years.
So I don't think I could just close the door on this.
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amother




Daphne
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:16 pm
Quote:
Plus, she is in contract to pay this up for the next 3 or 4 years.
So I don't think I could just close the door on this.

Hold up! She has a contract? The way you were writing all this time I assumed you paid up front in full.
I cannot for the life of me imagine that a good lawyer can't help you here.
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:17 pm
amother Lightyellow wrote:
OT but OP I hope you author books.
Also, no offense, but it reminds me of a sad long winded thread that was recently removed. Just because of the good writing skills.
Are they all fictional?


I don't author books. But thanks, I guess that's a compliment?

I don't know which long-winded thread was removed. What was it about? I haven't been here all that much lately.

And all of my stories are 100% true.
Including this one, though I wish it wasn't. Sad

(Not even so much because of what we are going through, but because of the chillul Hashem this is causing in my heart. I keep thinking that I can't believe a frum yid would act this way, and this is the reason not to patronize a Jew. Because if something goes wrong, you can't sue him, and you have to worry about taking action against a frum man whose kids go to the same school as mine! I don't even feel comfortable, nor do I know if it's allowed , to post a bad review about his business.)
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amother




Lightyellow
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:19 pm
amother OP wrote:
I don't author books. But thanks, I guess that's a compliment?

I don't know which long winded-thread was removed. What was it about? I haven't been here all that much lately.

And all of my stories are 100% true.
Including this one, though I wish it wasn't. Sad

(Not even so much because of what we are going through, but because of the chillul Hashem this is causing in my heart. I keep thinking that I can't believe a frum yid would act this way, and this is the reason not to patronize a Jew. Because if something goes wrong, you can't sue him, and you have to worry about taking action against a frum man whose kids go to the same school as mine! I don't even feel comfortable, nor do I know if it's allowed , to post a bad review about his business.)

Yes, I definitely meant it as a compliment.
Skip my other comment. keep writing!
I’m sorry that I’m enjoying your story. I wish you can tell us something funnier next time.
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ra_mom




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:25 pm
amother OP wrote:
My daughter said the same. I told her that he will charge her for using his lot as a parking garage if we do that.
Plus, she is in contract to pay this up for the next 3 or 4 years.
So I don't think I could just close the door on this.

Oh boy. I forgot that this was financed. I'm so so sorry. ❤️
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:28 pm
amother Daphne wrote:
Quote:
Plus, she is in contract to pay this up for the next 3 or 4 years.
So I don't think I could just close the door on this.

Hold up! She has a contract? The way you were writing all this time I assumed you paid up front in full.
I cannot for the life of me imagine that a good lawyer can't help you here.


Of course she has a contract.
As I said, the lawyer I spoke to said that there is nothing I can do.
Another I guy I spoke to, who read the contract, said that sometimes it helps just to send a letter from a lawyer. Even if you have no leg to stand on, they get scared.
But the dayan I spoke to said that it's very wrong to go to secular courts before summoning him to bais din.
The problem here is that legally, I don't have a leg to stand on. The law doesn't protect fools.

He explained to me that 90 percent of the time, the halacha will follow the law. So he didn’t see a way to prove that he wronged me. But the only way we may have a case is that if they could get him to admit that he knowingly sold us a broken car, which would be a highly unlikely event. Then it would be a Mekach Taus.

The most we could hope for is to get him to come to mediation (also highly unlikely) and get him to feel guilty for what he put us through (supremely unlikely) . Also, since we are well known in the community, he may feel some motivation to make it up to us. What
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:33 pm
amother Garnet wrote:
He is one of those slimy used car salesmen that all the cliches are built off of. The fact that he pretends to be frum doesn’t change who he really is. You and your daughter were scammed multiple times.

The psak you got doesn’t ring right to me. Is this a posek who specializes in this particular area of choshen mishpat
?


Which part doesn't ring true?
I actually spoke to two dayanim. The head of the choshen mishpat beis din in my town, and his colleague. They discussed the case between themselves and advised me as I outlined above.
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