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Sad Saga about a car: A Cautionary Tale [Update]
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:37 pm
amother Cadetblue wrote:
I’m SO sorry to her this crazy story, it only got crazier as I read on! I hope he at least reimbursed the last $400 (or at least you disputed the charge on cc)

So sad how delusional he can be about the car he sold. I’d imagine most dealers give at least a year warranty, no?! Forsure a few months!! What a big headache!


Regarding the $400 charge, he claimed it was for parts and did not charge me for labor. So I'm not sure I can dispute the charge.
Also, there is no warranty not for a year, a month or even a day. Yes, I also could not believe it.
Is it just me, or does this seem medieval? Like it's hard to believe such a thing can happen in 2022.
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amother




OP
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:45 pm
amother Lightyellow wrote:
Yes, I definitely meant it as a compliment.
Skip my other comment. keep writing!
I’m sorry that I’m enjoying your story. I wish you can tell us something funnier next time.


Sorry, there's nothing funny about this story.
As I once said a long time ago, I don't write the script. I only act in it.
And this one's a pretty crummy one. Confused
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mommyisbest




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 12:25 am
When I purchased my first used car in NY off craiglist I used him: https://www.lemonprotector.com/
Expensive, but worth it. Now I go to my local mechanic in lakewood.

Its worth paying a hundred bucks to avoid a lot more charges!
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amother




Cantaloupe
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 12:36 am
I didn’t read the whole thread, I’m sorry for what you’re going through. Why is the Lemon Law not applicable here?
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wtvr




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 4:26 am
amother OP wrote:
Regarding the $400 charge, he claimed it was for parts and did not charge me for labor. So I'm not sure I can dispute the charge.
Also, there is no warranty not for a year, a month or even a day. Yes, I also could not believe it.
Is it just me, or does this seem medieval? Like it's hard to believe such a thing can happen in 2022.


He should provide you with an itemized receipt to prove it if that's the case.

Mechanics don't stock parts. They order as needed. He should be able to easily show you invoices of what what purchased and what it cost.

Also, dare I say this, get your husband involved. Sounds to me that he's taking advantage of a young single girl and her "naive" mother and he can get away with it.
But maybe if a male stands up to him, he'll think twice.
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amother




Ruby
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 4:37 am
Just leave the car there, stop the payments, and dispute the $400 charge.
The guy is literally laughing all the way to the bank.

I can’t believe you are falling for this scammer.
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amother




Daphne
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:28 am
Quote:

Just leave the car there, stop the payments, and dispute the $400 charge.
The guy is literally laughing all the way to the bank.

I can’t believe you are falling for this scammer.

Yes, something isn't making sense here. You paid for a product that you right now don't have. The seller still has possession of it. I'm not understanding why a lawyer would tell you that you need to continue paying for it. It's one thing if he actually fixes it and it's usable, but right now that's not the case. I think you need to get some other people involved
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:40 am
amother Cantaloupe wrote:
I didn’t read the whole thread, I’m sorry for what you’re going through. Why is the Lemon Law not applicable here?


I believe the Lemon law only applies to new cars. This is a used car.
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:43 am
He clearly sold you a faulty car; you can’t prove if he knew about it.
You do not have possession of the car.
You are still making payments on an item that you do not have have and does not work.
You won’t go to secular courts because you first need to bring him to Bais din.
You won’t bring him to bais din because the Dayan said you have no case.

Why can’t you bring him to bais din, let them say you have no case, and then pursue your legal options?
Did you use credit card to purchase and does it have consumer protection?
Did you consult a lawyer?

I’m not understanding why you aren’t taking any action and accepting the fact that you were cheated.
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amother




Apple
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:44 am
amother Cantaloupe wrote:
I didn’t read the whole thread, I’m sorry for what you’re going through. Why is the Lemon Law not applicable here?


Lemon law doesn't apply to used cars.
(Which is mentioned in the thread, but why bother reading it if someone will give you the cliff notes Banging head )
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amother




Viola
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:47 am
amother OP wrote:
Which part doesn't ring true?
I actually spoke to two dayanim. The head of the choshen mishpat beis din in my town, and his colleague. They discussed the case between themselves and advised me as I outlined above.


The pasty about not joining a class action lawsuit. Or collaborating with others that he scammed.

If you can prove a pattern where many cars he sold never worked. That can theoretically prove mekach taus? I would think.

I’m sorry for this terrible experience. Do you have the money to just pay this off if you can’t find a way out?
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 7:51 am
amother Daphne wrote:
Quote:

Just leave the car there, stop the payments, and dispute the $400 charge.
The guy is literally laughing all the way to the bank.

I can’t believe you are falling for this scammer.

Yes, something isn't making sense here. You paid for a product that you right now don't have. The seller still has possession of it. I'm not understanding why a lawyer would tell you that you need to continue paying for it. It's one thing if he actually fixes it and it's usable, but right now that's not the case. I think you need to get some other people involved


The seller is not in "possession" of it. He has a shop where he sells cars, and separately, he has a garage where he has mechanics do repairs.
I voluntarily towed the car to his repair shop. It's no different than having your car at any repair shop, and waiting for him to fix it. What do you do when he just keeps it for a month without fixing it??

Regarding the lawyer: He advised me to keep making payments because the payments are not made to the seller, "Mike". When you buy a car, the payments are made to the financial company which goes through the bank. As an attorney, he is usually hired by the finance companies to go after customers who defaulted on their contracts. And it's not pretty.

I have spoken to several people, including 2 dayanim. The dayanim said I may not go to arkaos and there's no case for din Torah. My husband has called Mike as well a few weeks ago, and he told my husband that he is working on fixing it. I'm not sure who else I can get involved.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:00 am
wtvr wrote:
He should provide you with an itemized receipt to prove it if that's the case.

Mechanics don't stock parts. They order as needed. He should be able to easily show you invoices of what what purchased and what it cost.

Also, dare I say this, get your husband involved. Sounds to me that he's taking advantage of a young single girl and her "naive" mother and he can get away with it.
But maybe if a male stands up to him, he'll think twice.


He did provide a receipt. IIRC, the parts amounted to about $450, and he gave her a discount, only charging $400.
My husband did call him. He told him that he is working on fixing it. This was about 2 or 3 weeks ago.
(Also, it's slightly complicating because of my husband's position in the community. He won't do anything to cause machlokes.)
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amother




Daphne
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:01 am
Quote:
I'm not sure who else I can get involved

A new lawyer
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amother




Red
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:03 am
In this business they often scam women, especially young single ones. They assume they can easily blame them for misusing it and breaking it and they will actually believe it.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:11 am
[quote="amother Goldenrod"]He clearly sold you a faulty car; you can’t prove if he knew about it.
You do not have possession of the car.
You are still making payments on an item that you do not have have and does not work.
You won’t go to secular courts because you first need to bring him to Bais din.
You won’t bring him to bais din because the Dayan said you have no case.

Why can’t you bring him to bais din, let them say you have no case, and then pursue your legal options?
Did you use credit card to purchase and does it have consumer protection?
Did you consult a lawyer?

I’m not understanding why you aren’t taking any action and accepting the fact that you were cheated.[/quote]

I answered most of these questions in the thread. I'm not doing nothing, but I don't see what else I can do at this point.

Again, I don't have a case legally either. The seller has a big shield to hide behind. The law is very clearly on his side, according to all the people I spoke to.

From my vantage point my options are:
1. Keep calling him and hopefully he will soon repair the car for real, at which point I will sell it back to him. The will be a loss, but at least I'll get it off my hands. I can also try to shop around for someone who will pay more.

2. Call him, tell him I feel I have been wronged, and ask him to come to a rabbi to mediate. This is what the dayan advised. But I am very skeptical that he would agree. More likely, I see him becoming very insulted and insisting I take the car off his lot and never call him again.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:15 am
amother Viola wrote:
The pasty about not joining a class action lawsuit. Or collaborating with others that he scammed.

If you can prove a pattern where many cars he sold never worked. That can theoretically prove mekach taus? I would think.

I’m sorry for this terrible experience. Do you have the money to just pay this off if you can’t find a way out?


So the guy who is trying to find other victims...I asked him to keep me in the loop, but that I could not give him the documentation he asked for right now. At the time, he said I would have been the third person.
I do not have the money to pay it off.
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amother




OP
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 8:22 am
amother Red wrote:
In this business they often scam women, especially young single ones. They assume they can easily blame them for misusing it and breaking it and they will actually believe it.


There is one angle I think is worth pursuing:

Mike said to me, several times: it's always harder with these foreign cars. The American cars are simpler but are more solid and it's cheaper to buy parts.

Me: so why did your saleslady sell my daughter this car?? She didn't ask for this car!

Mike: They are just salesladies! Their job is to sell. They don't know anything about cars.

Me: But you employ her! How can you hide behind the saleslady, who clearly convinced my daughter to buy a car that was not good for her, and say she doesn't know anything?

Mike: Look, I'm only trying to help you. But you and your daughter are being rude to me....
Rolling Eyes

I think this is one area where he can be made to take responsibility. It's a lame thing to say that he is not at fault for what his saleslady said or did while working for him.
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 9:15 am
[quote="amother OP"]
amother Goldenrod wrote:
He clearly sold you a faulty car; you can’t prove if he knew about it.
You do not have possession of the car.
You are still making payments on an item that you do not have have and does not work.
You won’t go to secular courts because you first need to bring him to Bais din.
You won’t bring him to bais din because the Dayan said you have no case.

Why can’t you bring him to bais din, let them say you have no case, and then pursue your legal options?
Did you use credit card to purchase and does it have consumer protection?
Did you consult a lawyer?

I’m not understanding why you aren’t taking any action and accepting the fact that you were cheated.[/quote]

I answered most of these questions in the thread. I'm not doing nothing, but I don't see what else I can do at this point.

Again, I don't have a case legally either. The seller has a big shield to hide behind. The law is very clearly on his side, according to all the people I spoke to.

From my vantage point my options are:
1. Keep calling him and hopefully he will soon repair the car for real, at which point I will sell it back to him. The will be a loss, but at least I'll get it off my hands. I can also try to shop around for someone who will pay more.

2. Call him, tell him I feel I have been wronged, and ask him to come to a rabbi to mediate. This is what the dayan advised. But I am very skeptical that he would agree. More likely, I see him becoming very insulted and insisting I take the car off his lot and never call him again.



Actually I guess I have poor comprehension, I apologize.
You said you spoke to a Dayan. But you didn’t actually call him to Bais din.
Once you call him to bais din, you are then free to pursue legal action.
You said you spoke to people, but you didn’t say you spoke with a lawyer who specializes in this area.
Lemon Law does apply to used cars, as far as I can tell, so I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t.
You didn’t mention if you called your credit cards consumer protection department.
Your desire to avoid machlokes is laudable, but you do have options; you’re just not willing to pursue them and that’s fine, I respect that a lot, kol hakavod. For real.
Based on what you wrote, you were clearly scammed and cheated and it would seem you would have some form of buyer protection and recourse if you wished to pursue it.
Hatzlacha.
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 25 2022, 9:16 am
amother OP wrote:
This situation is aggravating enough as is, but I just realized something that is really making me infuriated: The constant insinuation on the part of seller that somehow this is my daughter's fault. It just hit me and I realized why this is so infuriating.

This started even the first time that the car had issues. This was about two weeks after she came home with the car. However, for one week (about 5 days, including shabbos), the car was not in use because my daughter went OOT. The car sat idle. She came back and used it for a day or two, and then thecar started smoking. I mentioned this to the lady agent who serviced my daughter, in order to point out that she got barely a week out of the car, because for a few days she wasn't even here! She took that information and used it as an attack of sorts saying that it probably broke down because a car like this is not supposed to be idle. It's supposed to be in use, otherwise it can ruin the engine. Seriously??? I know I don't know much about cars, but do I really sound that dumb??

And mind you, she repeated that line several times.

Now, the car isn't starting. Even before the seller got the car, he already tried hinting that maybe the Chaveirim guy broke something when he tried to boost the car, or maybe he broke the key- causing it not to connect with the computer. As if there couldnt possibly be anything wromg with the car itself, and someone must have ruined a perfectly good car. And now, he is blaming my daughter for not bringing in the car soon enough, and letting it "linger". You would think she let the problem linger for 3 months, like a cavity that turned into a root canal.

I am realizing why this makes me mad, because it's so obvious that the car is junk, but instead of owning up to it, he is throwing around blame.

I was ready to give him the benefit of the doubt. But this is about as much as I could take.

I know it's my fault. My fault lies in buying the car from him and not doing the research. The other things he is blaming us for are completely ludicrous.


Okay your daughter is legally a grown up and it’s her purchase
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