Kiddush in Shul | Imamother

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 9:37 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

I am not understanding why it’s not ok to go to shul for the kiddush, whether it’s for a Simcha or for a weekly kiddush. Should there be a bouncer there, to make sure that only people who were in shul can go inside? What if I want to meet my husband, but I’m unable to go to shul? Can I not take part? I never ever heard such a thing….

What is the reason why there is a shul? Please tell me.
If it happens to be a kiddush it's just a *bonus*. I'm sure you agree that to turn the bonus into the ikar on a steady basis is not in the spirit of Shabbos.

imaima

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 9:41 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

The beis hamikdash was not just for services, neither is a beit knesset. I think the word means „house of gathering“ so women and children gather too.
I am put off when people come just to stuff their faces or get drunk - and they are men. But women with little kids have an excuse why they didn’t daven with a minyan

OOTforlife

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 9:44 am

SuperWify wrote:

I was at a Kiddush - it was nothing fancy. Basic kugel fruit and cake. A woman came with a big bag and whenever she thought no one was looking she kept stuffing food into her bag. Then she realized we caught on so she took the bag and ran.

This kind of person I don't even think to resent, I just feel bad for her.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 9:45 am

imaima wrote:

But women aren’t allowed to bring kids to shul not to disturb the prayer! So what are they left to do? Let me guess! Stay home for hours and go crazy instead of *gasp* join the rest of am yisrael

At that shul there was a playground outside Smile

so the kids had fun Smile

Plenty of shuls don't have kiddush unless there is a simcha. Then what? Smile

imaima

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 9:48 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

At that shul there was a playground outside Smile

so the kids had fun Smile

Plenty of shuls don't have kiddush unless there is a simcha. Then what? Smile

Then the husbands with little kids don’t have to daven there
I am not really sure what you are trying to prove with that argument.
There are many imperfect things in the world but we shouldn’t go and bash the things that seem to be beneficial for some and not exactly harmful for anyone.

OOTforlife

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 9:50 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

The main reason is for men to fulfill their obligation to daven. Which in many families is only made possible by the wife staying home to watch the kids. To make a parallel from Talmud Torah, I would say the wife who cares for their children to enable the husband to daven with a minyan is entitled to share in any schar, including the kiddush.

It so happens that I do daven in shul Shabbos morning, because our shul has babysitting. But if I had to watch my own kids so my husband could daven, I'd feel perfectly entitled to enjoy kiddush. Not to mention the fact that, as shul members and also additional donors, we literally pay for the kiddush.

little neshamala

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 9:57 am

Sue me.
I go to the kiddush because I enjoy it. I like eating food (too bad on you, you can watch me eat), and I like socializing with neighborhood women who I otherwise wouldnt see. It solidifies friendships and is a lovely thing.
I am pretty mindful of my manners and I dont think im standing and blocking off the entire table, but sometimes I might get some food, turn around and am met with a bit of a crowd, so its hard to wiggle all the way , especially if there are other clusters of women shmoozing. So I might just stand there and talk until theres a split in the sea.
Sometimes I come earlier to daven, or hear the Rav's speech, but truthfully that doesnt happen as my little ones usually make that difficult. So I come for the kiddush, for my little boys to shake hands Good Shabbos with the Rav, and to walk my husband home.
And im not thinking twice about this, because it is perfectly fine to do so.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:03 am

imaima wrote:

My dear, beis hamikdash and beit knesset is first and foremost for worshipping and korbanot. It was not constructed to be the prime location for Fresserei or for desperate women to get a chance to socialize.
And yes, being a mom does restrict things. Life changes when you have kids. It's part of the deal.

keym

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:03 am

In my experience, a shul that wants kids to come, even for a bit, incentives them. A Candyman, a weekly kiddush for family, youth groups, programs.
Shuls that don't have these don't prioritize having children want to come to shul and attracting families.
If the shul has a kiddush and the Rebbitzen is complaining about it, that tells me that the Rebbitzen is not on the same page as the shul's mission.

Ema of 5

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:11 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

See above

For a simcha kiddush I would say it's totally OK. But in the example I stated I think the Rebbetzin was right as it had turned into women coming with the kids every week just too socialize and eat but not prayer.

But why is that bad?

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:11 am

imaima wrote:

I'm not trying to prove anything. In fact I wasnt even present when that subject was discussed Smile

and I haven't been to a kiddush for a long time since I dont even appreciate them Smile

The only thing I oppose is to turn the bonus into the ikar. There is ikar and there is tafel.

Ema of 5

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:12 am

OOTforlife wrote:

So I think if a person has no connection to a shul at all, I.e. doesn't daven there, spouse doesn't daven there, doesn't have membership, and goes regularly just to eat at the kiddush, that is a little socially off. But in my experience, very few people do that. It's not a common thing, in my community at least.

Right, that’s a little weird. But like you said, most people don’t do that. Most people who go to a weekly kiddush at a specific shul have a connection to the shul.

Ema of 5

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:14 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

For MEN the reason to go to shul is because there’s an obligation to go to shul. Women have no such obligation. Many DO go to shul to daven, but many are unable to, for whatever reason. I see no reason why they shouldn’t be welcome AFTER shul. That’s not very nice.

Ema of 5

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:17 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

At that shul there was a playground outside Smile

so the kids had fun Smile

Plenty of shuls don't have kiddush unless there is a simcha. Then what? Smile

Then the women don’t go to shul to daven, they come after. But now they are being told (not sure who said it) that it should just be a quick in and out, they shouldn’t hang around and socialize. So women can’t win….

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:22 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

But why is that bad?

You don't get it? Will then I will explain it to you:
Shul is first and foremost for worshipping.
It's not intended *lekachtchila* to be a kiddush club for fressers or a social club for desperate mothers who don't have enough of mental or intellectual stimulation.
There is a primarily and there is secondary and the secondary is a *bonus*.

Ema of 5

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:25 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

No one is discussing going to shul during davening to socialize. This is AFTER DAVENING IS OVER when the building is no longer being used to daven. If someone has a connection to a shul, there is nothing wrong with them going to a weekly kiddush.
Many shuls have a weekly kiddush for families. Who makes up those families? Just the men who come to davening?

keym

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 10:34 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

It's not about "bonus".
Shuls that choose to have a kiddush are also choosing to make "shul attendance" even for a bit appealing for children. Because child who want to come to shul are more likely to become adults who want to come to shul.

I bring my young children to shul for the last kaddish and then kiddush or to say amen and get a lolly for them. Because I want to encourage my kids to want to go to shul for a little bit.

I had this fight with someone over Yom Tov about the Candyman and the propriety of children eating candy in shul. There are those who believe that children should not come to shul until they can sit the entire time with no treats or entertainment. These (usually older women) grumble about all the children not keeping their unattainable standards.

When a shul makes a weekly kiddush after davening for women also, they are sending the message that they want children and women to come even just to say gut Shabbos.
When a shul has a Candyman, they want kids to come say even 1 amen.

And let's not forget what happens to a shul without children - 20 years later it becomes a shul without a minyan.

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 11:17 am

keym wrote:

I don't know which circles you are in but over here many batei knesset don't have kiddush except for smachot and believe it or not, they are very well attended even *without* a weekly kiddush or even a special Candy man (gasp! Surprised

)
Lots of kids do come with their snackbag to the tfila and also go out to play after a while Smile

mazelandbracha

Tue, Nov 01 2022, 11:52 am

keym wrote:

👏