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Forum
-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Shabbos, Rosh Chodesh, Fast Days, and other Days of Note
Bnei Berak 10
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 Thu, Oct 27 2022, 8:49 am
| amother Bellflower wrote: | Why would it be a problem never heard that b4
Also by the time chulent gets to your plate it’s already Kli Shlishi… |
What about kalei bishul?
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amother
Anemone
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 8:52 am
| amother Dodgerblue wrote: | I know someone who does this. Seems like her kids were all a little adhd and couldn't sit too long. So this was the best solution for them.
I make two course.
1. Fish, salads, egg salad (sometimes)
2. Cholent, deli roll, grilled chicken (sometimes) |
I do two courses too. I do challah, dips and fish (not necessarily Gefilte fish. Sometimes, salmon, sushi, herring , depends what we are in the mood of)
Then I serve everything else:
Eggs, liver , salad
The hot foods , cholent, pastrami, kugel, shnitzel and cold cuts.
My family prefers everything out on the table and they help themselves. We started doing this a few months ago. It’s so much easier for me and we feel we have more oneg this way, when everyone chooses what they like.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 8:52 am
| amother Bellflower wrote: | Why would it be a problem never heard that b4
Also by the time chulent gets to your plate it’s already Kli Shlishi… |
When serving gherkins one should take care they are not touching hot chulent.
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Aurora
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 8:54 am
We do challah & salad, then the main course.
But if I'm at someone's house, I'm just happy that the person(people) thought of us to invite us. I wouldn't worry too much.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 8:55 am
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What is the issue with serving fresh vegetables and chulent on the same plate? Never heard of this.
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amother
Anemone
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 9:00 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | What is the issue with serving fresh vegetables and chulent on the same plate? Never heard of this. |
I just asked my DH about it because my family officially eats pickles with their cholent and I’ve never heard of this.
There are certain foods that “cook quickly” and some hold that even in a Kli Shlishi it’s an issue. DH said it’s talked about in Shulchan Aruch but there are many dayos about it and not everyone holds that Kli Shlishi is an issue with Kalei Bishul.
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watergirl
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 9:05 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | What is the issue with serving fresh vegetables and chulent on the same plate? Never heard of this. |
Cholent has the halachic status of being able to “cook” raw vegetables. However, the crockpot is a kli roshon, the serving utensil is a kli sheini, and the plate itself is a kli shlishi, so it can no longer “cook” the raw vegetables. It has even less status if you bring it from the crockpot into a serving dish and then to the table which would make your plate a kli revei (bad english transliteration, I know). So this is really very unnecessary to not put my vegetables on your plate by most halachic rulings.
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paperflowers
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 9:09 am
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I only do one course unless we are having fish, which is very rare for us. I just like being able to see all my choices before I decide what to eat.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 9:56 am
| watergirl wrote: | | Cholent has the halachic status of being able to “cook” raw vegetables. However, the crockpot is a kli roshon, the serving utensil is a kli sheini, and the plate itself is a kli shlishi, so it can no longer “cook” the raw vegetables. It has even less status if you bring it from the crockpot into a serving dish and then to the table which would make your plate a kli revei (bad english transliteration, I know). So this is really very unnecessary to not put my vegetables on your plate by most halachic rulings. |
Many chulents contain potatoes. I think it's called "gush" in Halacha and there is a chashash it can cook items like lettuce or other kalei bishul items.
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tichellady
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 10:07 am
it’s fine, do what works for you! we have no rules about courses. depends on my mood and other factors. when I’m a guest I’m happy to have whatever the host makes in whatever number of courses they prefer.
re cholent I’m sure there are different opinions. also relevant that people don’t actually want their salad cooked
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lora
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 10:15 am
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I sometimes cut down from 3 courses to 2. we usually do challah/fish/dips/salads then eggs/veggies/liver then chulent/kugels/deli/pickles. when I get lazy or its getting late I just serve the eggs together with the chulent (since it cooks inside the chulent either way.) some foods are eaten as a minhag and so I wouldnt skip the actual food however I dont think its a big deal exactly how its served. Fish and meat cant be served together, thats it.
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zaq
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 12:16 pm
OP, you do you. The Torah doesn't tell us that we need to divide a meal into distinct courses, except for the Pesach seder at which we eat the korban Pesach as a last course after the rest of the meal. And even then, can you consider it a "course" if all you eat of it is a kezayit? OK, so if you serve fish (not everyone does)and poultry or beef, you serve the fish on separate dishes with separate cutlery, so it's convenient to make it a separate course so no one and nothing gets mixed up.
Sometimes a Shabbat meal is even served buffet style. It's not common, but it's done occasionally. Please don't let a common practice that has no halachic basis become "halacha" in your mind.
ETA Obviously WE don't eat the korban pesach.
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amother
Brass
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 1:52 pm
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When we are alone, its usually only one or two courses. I do like to servea few courses when I have guests, only because I want to enjoy them and not have the meal end too quickly. The courses are usually varied enough that everyone finds something to nibble on and between each course we have zemirot and divrei Torah and discussion. Admittedly, I no longer have little children so we do find a leisurely slow paced shabbos meal very enjoyable. I have a combined lounge/dining room so when the grandchildren and families with little kids do come, they play right nearby and if their parents need to tend to them they can do so right there.
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amother
Geranium
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 3:46 pm
| watergirl wrote: | | Cholent has the halachic status of being able to “cook” raw vegetables. However, the crockpot is a kli roshon, the serving utensil is a kli sheini, and the plate itself is a kli shlishi, so it can no longer “cook” the raw vegetables. It has even less status if you bring it from the crockpot into a serving dish and then to the table which would make your plate a kli revei (bad english transliteration, I know). So this is really very unnecessary to not put my vegetables on your plate by most halachic rulings. |
If you ladle soup from a pot into a bowl, according to the way you set it up the bowl would be a kli shlishi. Not everyone considers this correct. Many consider the soup bowl kli sheini even though you removed the soup from the pot with a ladle.
With regard to cholent as opposed to soup, the cholent is a solid and halacha considers it different than a liquid. You can tell that a liquid will cool off faster than a solid when removed from the cooking utensil. Because of this the soup, once it's in a kli shlishi, loses its ability to heat anything to the point where you have a problem with bishul. A hot solid like cholent might still be able to cook something in a kli shlishi.
I wouldn't straight out advise anyone they have no problem putting hot cholent on raw lettuce. Doesn't sound like anything you'd want to eat, but it can happen when you're eating both at the same course and putting both on the same plate. Best for everyone to ask their own lor.
To answer op, I sometimes don't bother with a first course. I usually serve two courses, sometimes only one, on occasion do the traditional full three course meal. It depends on my mood, dh's preference, my guests, and whatever comes up while I'm shopping and cooking.
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Raisin
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 3:49 pm
I wouldn't put cholent on the same plate as salad, halachic concerns aside. Its just not so appetising.
Even if I serve one course of salads, dips, cold cuts, etc I will give out cholent in bowls.
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justforfun87
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 3:59 pm
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If it's just us it is usually one course but my husband likes fish so we break it up. I assume people did 2 courses to spread out the meal so people can socialize etc. Otherwise it's like 30 mins and done.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 4:01 pm
| justforfun87 wrote: | | If it's just us it is usually one course but my husband likes fish so we break it up. I assume people did 2 courses to spread out the meal so people can socialize etc. Otherwise it's like 30 mins and done. | Nope. We have one course. If people are enjoying the conversation and the company the meal just continues, even if people arent eating anymore.
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8x
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 4:17 pm
| Raisin wrote: | I wouldn't put cholent on the same plate as salad, halachic concerns aside. Its just not so appetising.
Even if I serve one course of salads, dips, cold cuts, etc I will give out cholent in bowls. |
Same.
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WitchKitty
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 4:31 pm
| amother Bellflower wrote: | Why would it be a problem never heard that b4
Also by the time chulent gets to your plate it’s already Kli Shlishi… |
So pot would be kli rishon. Ladle Kli Sheini. Bowl Shlishi. Ladle revi'I. So the plate is kli chamishi. LOL.
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chocolate moose
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Thu, Oct 27 2022, 4:36 pm
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You can't put fish and meat out togehter
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