Posts advocating for lying? s/o selfish recipe thread

kalsee

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 5:08 am

I am constantly seeing this phenomenon and I just don't get it.

A poster will make a thread with a question, what to do , how to react, what to say.

and a common answer given on the thread is to lie - oh, just tell them you don't remember the recipe. tell them you had to go out . Tell them you were sleeping.

Honestly, I don't get it. Is it so hard for people to stand up for their truth? even if you don't want to say anything private. So just don't give away personal information
Or be vague

But posters so easily and quickly advocate for straight out lying

amother

Brass

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 5:13 am

I think they know it's kind of childish for a home cook not to share recipes. Being direct and saying,"I don't want to share," doesn't come across very well, so they fudge it rather than own up to a slightly unpleasant character trait.

Now, if you're a professional of any kind and being asked to give away work for free, or if you're dealing with a busybody who's prying where she doesn't belong, then there is room to prevaricate if you have already said no and still can't get the person to stop.

Raisin

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 5:27 am

sometimes lying is ok. If you just came from the mikva or a therapist or oncologist not everyone has to know where you were.

In the recipe example, I would not lie. If for some reason I really did not want to share a recipe (maybe my friends secret recipe) I would say I forgot it rather than lie about techniques. I often google recipes, freeze the result and than get asked for the recipe when I serve it, by which time I have entirely forgotten where it was from. So very plausible for me!

kalsee

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 5:37 am

Raisin wrote:

Being vague is fine.
If I was on my way back from my therapist or mikvah or doctor and someone asked me where was, I would say I was out. I had some things to take care of. I was doing my errands. I had to go talk to someone.

In the recipe example, I'm not saying the lie isn't plausible, I'm saying don't say it if it isn't the truth.
Saying I forgot when you haven't forgotten isn't the truth.

imaima

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 8:48 am

kalsee wrote:

I suggested lying on that thread.
The truth of the OP is that she is clinging to her recipe in an immature way. She may stand up for it and say the truth but how graceful is it?

Not very. Many people said that she can answer what she wants but people‘s attitude to her will change.

I suggest to exit the situation in a more elegant way so people don’t think less of her.

Last edited by imaima on Tue, Nov 08 2022, 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ecru

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 8:48 am

So funny! We literally just ran a learning program at our shul yesterday for the kids on the mitzvah of distancing oneself from sheker and the limited exceptions that exist where we may fudge the literal truth.

If anyone is interested, the curriculum that we used as a starting point and a handful of the relevant sources are at the link below.

http://nleresources.com/wp-con.....e.pdf

ETA, I think most posters of the type OP is talking about would say that their suggested lies fall under the "for shalom" exception, if they even think about it. But sometimes it's quite a stretch.

amother

Forsythia

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 8:55 am

imaima wrote:

I'm the OP of that thread. I do not, and would not lie. I don't think that saying the truth is not graceful and I don't think people have a bad attitude towards me for saying the truth.
I think that people that have a bad attitude towards someone that doesn't want to share their secrets, are entitled people.

Aurora

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 9:03 am

I think the lying is because many of us, as girls, were taught that being a good girl was the same thing as agreeing to everything asked of us.

Even today, I have noticed that when people say that Mrs Schwartz is really sweet or nice, they really mean that she just does things for them, or always agrees with them, or never tells them no.

So since we want people to think of us as nice, we work on trying to come up with ways to get out of saying "no" or having boundaries.

On the other hand, a lot of us also come from these really tight (and wonderful!) communities where sharing resources is part of what helps tie the community together. So, from this context, it can also feel a bit like you're bowing out of being part of the community.
It's a balance between still being you, and still being a part of the community. I think that's part of why there's a strong reaction to saying "no" and why many do come to lie - because it's easy to forget that balance.

On the other, other hand, I feel like I also see so many posters on Imamother complain that they're doing so so so much for their families, or become a mom and expected to "just say yes" to everything so quickly, and just feel like a schmatte at the end because they feel like it's arrogant to say no, or for some reason, that saying "no" is just not acceptable.

Last edited by Aurora on Tue, Nov 08 2022, 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total

imaima

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 9:07 am

amother Forsythia wrote:

Exactly
Both sides will make their conclusions after the conversation. People won’t be upset because of the recipe itself, I think the situation would just look tacky overall

amother

DarkGray

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 9:59 am

amother Freesia wrote:

It comes under the category of lying for the sake of shalom, which is halachically valid; though one should minimize doing so, and rather be vague.

Lying for the sake of shalom is for when you can't change the fact you're lying about.

amother

Oldlace

Tue, Nov 08 2022, 10:05 am

People lie because it's easier and because they don't want to look bad. We justify such lies by telling ourselves that they're for the other person's sake, so they won't feel bad, and sometimes this is even true. Nobody's going to tell a new mom her baby looks like a monkey, so if she forces you against the wall and says "Isn't he just the cutest thing you've ever seen" of course you're going to say yes. And if someone buttonholes you on the way to the mikvah asking "where are you headed?" you may not have the presence of mind to come up with an evasion, so you say "To the drugstore" instead.

I liked Dear Abby's advice on what to do if someone asks a question you don't want to answer: "If you forgive me for not answering, I'll forgive you for asking."

invisiblecircus

Wed, Nov 09 2022, 6:58 am

amother Oldlace wrote:

I liked Dear Abby's advice on what to do if someone asks a question you don't want to answer: "If you forgive me for not answering, I'll forgive you for asking."

That only works if the person is asking an inappropriate question.

It can be a nice get-out if someone asks how much you paid for your house but you'd come off looking completely socially inept if you answered that to a recipe request.