WWYD supporting learning saga - we just found out

amother

NeonOrange

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 3:59 pm

crust wrote:

OP I only read your posts I did not read all the replies so I apologize if this was already mentioned.

From what you describe this seems like a real case of מקח טעות and needs a real Posek to guide you.

I am so sorry for you and your son that you have been taken for a ride. I think that the concerns you bring up are completely valid.
I hope you find a good Rav to help you unpack this.

Hatzlacha!

Mekach Taos is when you deceive someone. In this case, no one promised anything- it was OP who mistakenly assumed something.

If the mechutanim promised xyz and retracted their offer, that would me a case of mekach Taos

crust

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 4:06 pm

amother NeonOrange wrote:

The OP does not share the exact details but between the lines, it seems like things were presented very differently from what they actually are.

I am not a posek and I do not say that it is a מקח טעות. I am saying that it seems like one and it needs a posek.

amother

Stoneblue

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 4:06 pm

amother NeonOrange wrote:

According to my translation guide, it means "mistake" which is different than fraud or deception.

In contractual terms, there was no "meeting of the minds" because the parties had completely different ideas of what the terms would be

Fraud would be if $10,000 a month for life had been promised and then the offer rescinded right after the engagement was formalized since one could reasonably infer that the offer had been made with the intent to lure into the engagement and that the deceiver assumed that etiquette and embarrassment would force the marriage to take place.

But again the whole thing seems very confusing and can only be cleared up by the actual people discussing it - either with some kind of rav/shaddchan or amongst themselves.

However, despite people claiming that people from comfortable wealthy backgrounds can adjust to poverty I honestly don't think that is true for most (not all people). I think most young people (and I assuming both the girl and boy are quite young) are very idealistic and have no idea what reality is.

When I was that age (let's say 21) I didn't think at all about the need to earn a good salary or marry a man who earned a good salary - it just didn't enter into my calculations because I hadn't really ever had to support myself for starters.

amother

Bluebonnet

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 6:56 pm

Chayalle wrote:

This is not the system. This is a minority of people who make assumptions, don't do adequate research, and end up with a situation they didn't expect.

Of course it is the system. Don't we teach all of our kids that the kollel lifestyle is the ideal one? Doesn't our shidduch system revolve around parents being able to provide support?

Now that doesn't mean there are those among us who have their heads properly screwed on and know that they themselves must figure out their lives and not anyone else. But one can't deny that there are a host of others who come out of this system with their heads NOT screwed on right, and feel entitled to their parents' support, government support and society's support.

amother

Bluebonnet

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 6:59 pm

amother Goldenrod wrote:

This system sounds so toxic for everyone involved.

Indeed it is. It is those people who are living this system that can't see how messed up it really is. True, there are among us people who do it right. But this system as a whole is really messed up. I get it, when you're so deeply entrenched you really can't see how bad it is. That's human nature.

Sometimes people on the outside really do have the clear headed view.

amother

Bluebonnet

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 7:01 pm

Chayalle wrote:

What, that I don't think the answer to all issues in the yeshiva world is to force non-yeshiva-type choices down everyone's throat?

I highly doubt telling OP's son to just go get a job is the answer to this problem here....recipe for resentment.

However, I do think the answer to this is not to force one type of lifestyle down all community members throat.

Of course we can't tell OP's son to just get a job now. He is a product of this society and wouldn't be accepting of anything of this sort. But the secondary point being made in this thread is to highlight how much wrong we ourselves are doing to our own society.

amother

Bluebonnet

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 7:03 pm

amother Papayawhip wrote:

Before my son got engaged we asked the shadchan about support. We didnt want to go further without knowing for how long they want to support him.
I'm sorry OP your going through this . Mazel tov and hatzlacha

Please take a step back and read what you wrote. Then think about it for a good long minute. What you are saying that the first and most important thing when looking for a shidduch is money. Not the person, not the character, not the middos. What you care most about is how much money the other set of parents is going to give to the kids.

Doesn't this highlight how messed up our system is??!!

amother

Bluebonnet

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 7:06 pm

amother Darkblue wrote:

I don't want to get into this too much because I feel like we're derailing the thread a bit, but of course the way you write it sounds crazy, but that's obviously not the way it's done. When people take finances into account it's not AFTER the boy and girl decide they like each other, it's supposed to be discussed BEFORE, when it's all on paper anyway. (I'm not saying that this is the way I would make a shidduch for my own child, but the fact is that this is what is often done.) The issue here is that there were assumptions and therefore it didn't get discussed.

OP said that her son dates either those who had money to support or those who were hardworking and willing to work to support him.
If he wants to learn and his wife wants to be a SAHM and live the life, how do those values align with each other?
It's not about valuing money above all else as you're making it to be, they don't necessarily want the same lifestyle. Or if they do, it doesn't sound like she has realistic expectations for it.

Of course it is! If someone truly wants to learn, they'll figure out how to make it work with little money too. What people are looking for IS money, so they can live comfortably while they're learning. They're looking for money, because they don't want to deal with the challenges that comes along with learning. In other words, they want the good part, and want someone else to deal with the bad part.

So tell yourself whatever floats your boat. But it is very much so about the money.

WhatFor

Thu, Nov 10 2022, 11:04 pm

crust wrote:

Reading what OP wrote, it seems that nothing explicit was offered and OP relied on them appearing wealthy. Op says in her op this wasn't discussed, they just thought they'd be generous (and her interpretation of generous is supporting her son in learning.) Only once they were engaged did OP learn that the future fil expected her son to work. This doesn't appear to have been hidden information, but very basic information that would have come to light if OP had discussed this with them explicitly. I'm still puzzled about how this wasn't discovered earlier in the dating process in these circles. This really seems like it would come out when discussing the bare minimum of information when doing research.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Nov 11 2022, 1:29 am

amother Bluebonnet wrote:

And for your children- you wouldn’t VERY EARLY ON want to know that the guy has a job? Would you be ok with a super nice guy who spends his day doing chessed but has no means of support bc money is just not that important compared to middos?
I believe that checking out the super nice guy would include whether he has a job or not.
I strongly doubt you don’t care about that.

LovesHashem

Fri, Nov 11 2022, 1:38 am

amother Bluebonnet wrote:

There's a problem when we tell our kids there's only one way to be frum.

amother

Wheat

Fri, Nov 11 2022, 1:47 am

amother Begonia wrote:

Maybe the problem is that the burden in supporting the kollel boy is on the girl and the girl's family. Maybe the problem is that the boy's side should be the primary supporter, since their son is the one who doesn't want to work.

Maybe the problem is that there is a mistake here? 2 mistakes actually.

1) this is not a burden, it's a privilege. Albeit a privilege that not everyone could or should allow themselves but it's a privilege.
2) It's not about her son not wanting to work. It's about him wanting to learn. From your post it sounds like he's a lazy good for nothing who just wants to lie back and let people pay his bills.

I'm sorry that you're so resentful.
Personally, we were not supported apart from a small sum to get us on our feet for the first couple of months while I found a new job (moved to a different town), my husband is still learning 21 years later, I work hard, he works hard and my kids know very clearly that if you want a kollel lifestyle you have to work hard and live simply.

The problem in the system is people who want everything. Live in the center of town (expensive rent), all the luxuries, a big house, latest fashions sheitels, cars etc etc and also stay in learning.

The problem in the system is the ones who feel they deserve to be supported even if they aren't working as hard as the people supporting them.

The problem in the system is the standard, worldwide, new age problem of everyone having to have the same privileges. The poor have to have the same as the rich, everyone has to have everything.
The issues in the kollel system are just a magnifying glass on this problem.

If a couple are really dedicated to learning, they can make it work. The same way people make it work when one of them spends 7 years in medical school. It's true that they are waiting for the salary afterwards but the day to day in the meantime is the same. But they have to both be on the same page, prepared to keep focused on their main goal and give up on all the side things to make it happen.

When we were looking into shiduchim for my son, our Rav told us, don't look for parents who will support him, look for a wife who will support him. Take a girl from a simple family who is used to living simply and knows how to work hard happily. The girls from wealthier families may bring money to the table but they also bring a high standard of living, expectations and a pampered attitude.

imorethanamother

Fri, Nov 11 2022, 2:07 am

Chayalle wrote:

This is not the system. This is a minority of people who make assumptions, don't do adequate research, and end up with a situation they didn't expect.

Ugh, I'm so tired of the word "research" coming up 5,000 times in this thread.

You can research until you're blue in the face, and then life happens.
You CAN NEVER COUNT ON SUPPORT AS A GIVEN. I know people who got divorced with the FIL didn't give the promised amount after a year. You can hope for support, but things happen. Illnesses, bankruptcy, lifestyle issues. I know people who searched every nook and cranny to find mental illness in the other side, found none, and surprise! Ended up with a schizophrenic son.

Research has become some kind of mantra for people who think they can control life. None of us can count on security of any kind. On Rosh Hashana, we eat round challahs to show us that life is a wheel. The gemara talks about changing fortunes constantly. It's scary, I understand.

I used to be so so jealous of women with giant engagement rings. And I had to really dig deep within myself to understand what it was I was so jealous of. And then I realized that it wasn't the ring itself. It was the idea behind the ring. That somehow, they would have a richer, easier, coddled lifestyle. And when I really understood the sentiment behind my jealousy, I realized how false it was. We crave things to prove to us that life will be okay, but we can never assume.

From everything I read in this thread tonight, I highly doubt this engagement will be successful. OP had an image of what she wanted for her son, her son had an image of what he wanted for himself, none of this is happening, and the two of them are feeding each other their disappointment and misery. I haven't seen one positive statement from OP about this girl. It's all negative statements, and she seems to be communicating that to her son. And that's before they're even married! Like, broken engagement in 3....2....1....

imaima

Fri, Nov 11 2022, 2:11 am

amother Smokey wrote:

As someone who has been struggling with parnasah for 16 years and has resentment on both sides. I’m imploring you please all sit down have a real conversation make sure everyone is happy and In agreement and only then proceed

Otherwise you are setting them up for a lifetime of disaster and fighting and hurt and a shattered marriage

I would first sit down with the son and talk tachalis. Ask about the girl and the lifestyle expectations.
See what he cares about most.

Then I would talk to mechatanim.

Last edited by imaima on Fri, Nov 11 2022, 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total