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WWYD supporting learning saga - we just found out
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:07 am
Chayalle wrote:
I grew up with wealthy paternal grandparents, but my mother's parents who were not wealthy were the ones always giving and helping and doing for us. Interestingly my DH grew up with same.

You might say it's more natural to give to a daughter, but my experiences in life have taught me that one should not assume that wealthy=generous. (and when it is, it often comes with strings attached.)

I have noticed IRL that even wealthy people who are generous can have a strong aversion to giving under what they perceive as pressure or expectations or when the recipient seems to have a sense of entitlement. They do not like feeling extorted or taken for a ride, and can get turned off even by the perception of such a situation.
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:15 am
amother OP wrote:
We knew we would help just didn't expect to give as much as we're going to have to support - as our income is already low. we ourselves also won't have any room for extras... but what can you do we're giving more than her side is to let them live.

May I be blunt? Have a serious talk with your son and discuss with him the following: what are the reasons he wants to marry her? Is there an attraction and are there feelings for each other? I am more concerned than anything else here that the perceived wealth was the attraction for both you and your son, and that on your son's side, he did not really get to know her very well on a deeper level, considering there is so much he did not know before they got engaged.

I think it's ok to let him know that he can call off the engagement if he did this for the wrong reasons. If tomorrow her parents say they are not going to give a cent after all, or if three months into the marriage they were to stop their contribution, is this someone he is willing to leave kollel and get a job in order to pay the bills?
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amother




Wandflower
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:18 am
watergirl wrote:
May I be blunt? Have a serious talk with your son and discuss with him the following: what are the reasons he wants to marry her? Is there an attraction and are there feelings for each other? I am more concerned than anything else here that the perceived wealth was the attraction for both you and your son, and that on your son's side, he did not really get to know her very well on a deeper level, considering there is so much he did not know before they got engaged.

I think it's ok to let him know that he can call off the engagement if he did this for the wrong reasons. If tomorrow her parents say they are not going to give a cent after all, or if three months into the marriage they were to stop their contribution, is this someone he is willing to leave kollel and get a job in order to pay the bills?



Finally, a voice of reason! Forget society's ills! What about the future of this young couple!
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:21 am
amother Foxglove wrote:
I have noticed IRL that even wealthy people who are generous can have a strong aversion to giving under what they perceive as pressure or expectations or when the recipient seems to have a sense of entitlement. They do not like feeling extorted or taken for a ride, and can get turned off even by the perception of such a situation.


I agree.
I have a daughter in shiddichim, and several times wealthy shidduchim have come up for her (not our doing.) I have found that they are the most persistent in finding out in advance what the financial arrangements will be, to make sure we have no expectations that it will be on their "generosity".
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:24 am
amother Mustard wrote:
Op or someone else, can someone remind me how long chosson wants to learn?

I think the approach is different if his dream was to learn in ey for 1 to 5 years verses if he planned to learn "forever".


I don't consider one and five years the same thing.
Grok. (Iykyk.)
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:26 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I don't consider one and five years the same thing.
Grok. (Iykyk.)


Agree, though there is everything in between. Like couples who go to EY for one year, then come back to the US and continue learning for longer.....

(I have heard from many people that the costs of supporting a couple in EY are generally much higher).
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:26 am
watergirl wrote:
May I be blunt? Have a serious talk with your son and discuss with him the following: what are the reasons he wants to marry her? Is there an attraction and are there feelings for each other? I am more concerned than anything else here that the perceived wealth was the attraction for both you and your son, and that on your son's side, he did not really get to know her very well on a deeper level, considering there is so much he did not know before they got engaged.

I think it's ok to let him know that he can call off the engagement if he did this for the wrong reasons. If tomorrow her parents say they are not going to give a cent after all, or if three months into the marriage they were to stop their contribution, is this someone he is willing to leave kollel and get a job in order to pay the bills?


I agree just I'd rephrase.
Is this someone that he feels they can work together to fulfill their dreams and raise a family together?

Because it's not all black and white and linear. There are ways to make dreams of kollel happen even when there's no money (I know from my family) but it takes effort and compromise and a strong marriage.
OOT kollel - away from both families and comfort zone, tutoring, night Chavrusos.

Does he like her enough, is he interested in a relationship with her to create a strong marriage with compromises even when things aren't perfect? Can they work together, even when the parents aren't involved?
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amother




Daphne
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:31 am
amother OP wrote:
We knew we would help just didn't expect to give as much as we're going to have to support - as our income is already low. we ourselves also won't have any room for extras... but what can you do we're giving more than her side is to let them live.
I don’t see why you would need to give more than her side. Is she not working now? Why can’t she work after the wedding? Are we back to her expecting to be an sahm while married to a learning guy?
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:36 am
keym wrote:
I agree just I'd rephrase.
Is this someone that he feels they can work together to fulfill their dreams and raise a family together?

Because it's not all black and white and linear. There are ways to make dreams of kollel happen even when there's no money (I know from my family) but it takes effort and compromise and a strong marriage.
OOT kollel - away from both families and comfort zone, tutoring, night Chavrusos.

Does he like her enough, is he interested in a relationship with her to create a strong marriage with compromises even when things aren't perfect? Can they work together, even when the parents aren't involved?

I agree with your rephrased post. You are right, kollel is not black and white; I can only learn if I am supported. But I get the impression that THIS boy feels that way.

Also though, the truth is that if all of a sudden they find themselves without support and literally can't pay their bills without her parent's help (which could happen) and OP can't give more, nor should she, if we are being realistic here, the kallah is not working full time and I am going to assume here she does not have a degree. I am also assuming he has no degree. They can not survive three months post wedding on her part time salary and it will take a much longer time before she is earning enough to be able to make up what her parents are giving... so yes it's likely he WOULD have to go to work until the time comes when she is earning enough. If that makes sense.


Last edited by watergirl on Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




NeonBlue
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:39 am
watergirl wrote:
May I be blunt? Have a serious talk with your son and discuss with him the following: what are the reasons he wants to marry her? Is there an attraction and are there feelings for each other? I am more concerned than anything else here that the perceived wealth was the attraction for both you and your son, and that on your son's side, he did not really get to know her very well on a deeper level, considering there is so much he did not know before they got engaged.

I think it's ok to let him know that he can call off the engagement if he did this for the wrong reasons. If tomorrow her parents say they are not going to give a cent after all, or if three months into the marriage they were to stop their contribution, is this someone he is willing to leave kollel and get a job in order to pay the bills?
This.
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imaima




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:45 am
amother OP wrote:
We knew we would help just didn't expect to give as much as we're going to have to support - as our income is already low. we ourselves also won't have any room for extras... but what can you do we're giving more than her side is to let them live.


You can do many many things

You are on the way to resentment

Why aren’t you having talks with all parties?
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 9:46 am
watergirl wrote:
I agree with your rephrased post. You are right, kollel is not black and white; I can only learn if I am supported. But I get the impression that THIS boy feels that way.


I wonder if he likes or knows her at all. There seems to be an awful lot that wasn't talked about during dating.

Op can I ask, why are you committing to pay support that you seem to say you don't have? Can you instead help your son come up with ways to earn money to supplement? OOT kollel, morning kollel, night Chavrusos, tests or learning programs that pay, tutoring. Or odd jobs that can be done during Bain hasdarim like driving or cleaning shuls or binding.
You can be a bit of a backup if necessary.
But help your son think about these ideas. He seems a bit anxious and panicky about money, and it would be much more helpful to him if you helped him with ways he can make money, rather than just write a check that you can't afford.

Btw, I know this world well. I was in kollel for 7 years with very minimal support, and I have lots of family in kollel for 5-15 years with minimal support that ends after the first year or two.
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chestnut




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 11 2022, 10:43 am
amother OP wrote:
Seems like a facade who knows what the girls side is dealing with but still has to keep up appearances.

We met to discuss our concerns for keeping a budget.

Within the money amount they are able to make it through a month without any extras.

I guess this all should have been discussed from the beginning 😕 🤷

Is this the goal you and your son were hoping to achieve now or you're both still upset it's without extras?
What's the kallah's reaction to this?
ETA - I see that the OP is basically adding the support for them to make ends meet and ends up paying more than the girls' side and will have no extras for her own family. I smell major resentment for a long time ...
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 13 2022, 7:54 pm
amother Darkblue wrote:
Sorry you are wrong.
Financial difficulties is one of the main contributors to marital strife.

Now, I'm not saying money should be the main thing to look for.
But if someone wants to stay in learning long term, and they have a choice between dating two girls and everything seems exactly the same on paper, yet one has the money to support and one doesnt, it does make sense that they may decide to date the more affluent one.

Posters here are bending over backwards to berate OP and this lifestyle (which should be a spinoff), but if they value starting off the marriage with learing, it really isn't unusual to want your son to be able to learn without financial worries.

I can say from the other side (my parents can't support much and they don't push for money from the other side either) that my brother would have much more menuchas hanefesh if he would have more support money. So it goes both ways.


Then maybe its time for your brother to go to work
Its not rocket science
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happyone




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 13 2022, 9:07 pm
I think you need to learn basic communication. Who assumesassumes? Do you really know their financial situation? Do you know that they don't intend to support. If it was that important you should've communicated with the other side. You can't make decisions based on assumptions. Why are you not asking now if they can help in any way. Can you afford to assist as well?
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hesha




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 13 2022, 9:40 pm
I didn’t read all of the replies but perhaps it is worthwhile to have a conversation with the feature in law and discuss the fact that you are not able to make it possible for your son to be a full-time learner without more support from them. Do they want their daughter to be married to a full-time learner? ‏ how would they react if they knew that he would have to go to work to make life work for them?
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naturalmom5




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 15 2022, 3:15 pm
amother Cerise wrote:
And for your children- you wouldn’t VERY EARLY ON want to know that the guy has a job? Would you be ok with a super nice guy who spends his day doing chessed but has no means of support bc money is just not that important compared to middos?
I believe that checking out the super nice guy would include whether he has a job or not.
I strongly doubt you don’t care about that.


Cmon....

There is a million miles between

Does chosan have a job ?
Aka is he a normal stable man..

And mooching off your mechutonim like greedy vultures
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DVOM




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:15 am
Any updates, op? I've been thinking about your posts and hoping you and your son have found some peace of mind in your choices! Please let me know how your doing!
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penguin




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 9:49 pm
Haven't read everything so perhaps this has been mentioned.

There can be a HUGE difference between marrying a young woman from a modest family with little support from her parents vs. marrying a young woman from a wealthy family whose expectations are much higher!

As someone (choshuv but poor) famously said, my daughter comes with a huge nadan of all the money her husband won't have to spend on her because she has little in the way of gashmius needs.

I think this needs to be explored very carefully. There can be low-maintenance girls from well-to-do families, but it would probably be the exception.

Your son may have to go out to work very soon in order to provide her with luxuries, never mind just to have rent and food.

For instance, will she expect a new piece of jewelry for every Yom Tov, birthday, anniversary, and baby?
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