Johanesburg or Cape Town?

amother

Mauve

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 1:57 pm

amother Aster wrote:

I'll bite, as I actually live in Joburg
- There are many people leaving but I would say that crime is no longer the main factor that is driving people out - it's "loadshedding" and lack of functionality from the municipality and government. At present our electricity is turned off for appx 2.5 hours 3 times per day - this is stage 4 of loadshedding. It sometimes gets better and sometimes worse. People who call afford to have installed solar panels so they don't have to rely on City Power. Many people have generators or inverters but they aren't long term solution. Generators cost a lot as they run on diesel and inverters have a limited life span. In some neighborhoods water is also turned off intermittently due to major infrastructure upgrades but these upgrades take years. Many businesses have been adversely affected by "loadshedding" especially if they can't afford to install solar or inverters.
- There is also a trend towards "semigration" where residents of Joburg and surrounds are moving to other provinces. Jew are mainly moving to Cape Town as there are Jewish schools there. Quality of life is supposed to be better, fresher air, less "loadshedding" and better infrastructure. As for schools there is definitely no Yeshiva in CT the closest thing is Cape Town Torah High which is a community school that is a mixture of religious levels. https://www.cttorahhigh.org/. As for crime I don't have enough info but in general the crime in CT is worse than in Joburg.
- Security in the Jewish neighborhoods is actually excellent. People do drive everywhere except on Shabbos when there are plenty of people walking around. There are secure complexes where kids run around and play. You might let your teenage son walk to a friend on his own but teenage girls will generally only walk in groups.
- As for people coming here - to Johannesburg - there are young couples and families that are coming - mostly temporarily for Kiruv, Kollel, Chinuch. There are many young frum couples who are choosing to stay here many who don't want to bring up their children in the Israeli school system. Most communities are not growing - the one or two that are growing are those for young frum families which indicates that there is a future here. The frum schools in general have lost less kids than the more modern and irreligious school. One reason is because frum people are more hesitant to move their kids and especially older kids into the school system. They also have to choose where to align themselves while in SA everything is much more open and accepting.
- As for the community life in Joburg that is something found nowhere else. The warmth the community responsibility, everyone looking out for each other. If you seriously are considering moving here you would have to do a significant amount of research to decide which community you want to join. There are several more "chareidi" communities but you won't find any community where everyone wears a back hat. There are a lot of people who are successful professionals who spend a big chunk of their day learning. If you are looking for any sort of spiritual growth do your research so you find a place where there is a focus on Torah and growth. Many people are self employed and you'd be hard pressed to find someone who stays at work past 5:00. People have much more laid back life styles - as they say "chilled" not rushing around. Basically all shuls have a Kiddush every week where the Rav will speak for a few minutes but otherwise you'll just sit with friends and catch up or have some meaningful conversations (hopefully). Often the Kiddush is for a a Yartzheit, Bar Mitvah, Kiddush for a girl or sponsored anonymously. Many Shuls have Shiurim throughout the week and Shabbos.
- As for housing you can definitely buy a stunning house for the price you want but I'd do a lot of research before buying. You might want to rent - that is if you still want to come. If you have good American jobs with good salaries you could save quite a bit of $$$ in a few years. Insurance isn't cheap but if you have a good plan it covers dental and optical and there are excellent doctors and dentists here many who are Jewish. Vacations are much cheaper - camp is max 10 day and nearly everyone goes away 1-2 times a year. You can find vacation for pretty cheap. In general people spend less - maybe cause they have a maid helping out they don't spend as much on takeout and other extras. Also very few people are into brand names and the community as a whole is much less materialistic and fashion is definitely not Lakewood, LA or BP though there are plenty of people who care about the way they look, they spend much less on their clothes.
- As for yeshivas - they are much smaller probably the average class would be 10-15 kids. There are a few options and they mostly do the South African Matric - which is pretty challenging. They are basically spend 10th, 11th, 12th grade preparing and write all the exams in 12th grade - minimum of 7 exams. Some boys will do GED and SATs and leave before graduating to learn in UK, US or Israel. There are also girls that leave early. Some do Penn Forster and some do other curriculums. There have been some who have done Cambridge but I don't know anyone who has done it recently. As for the level of learning - I'm not sure where you live and what type of Yeshiva you would send your son to - you'll need to do research to find out if the level is on par.

I live in JHB and I have to say this is a great description of our lives.
Interesting there have been a few Israeli frum families who have moved here recently to enjoy a better quality of life. Not sure if they found it but there is something to be said about having household help, comfortable houses and a relaxing Sunday.

Not sure I would move here if I lived somewhere else, but definitely not leaving anytime soon.

amother

Yolk

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 2:16 pm

Just want to add that many times those who have met South Africans that have moved away to other countries hear only the bad since those are the ones who have left while those who remain love the lifestyle and community and would never leave. Personally I thank Hashem for the wonderful life here and would never move to back to America London or any other popular Jewish city which I have experienced

amother

Sage

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 4:03 pm

amother Yolk wrote:

I was there, multiple times. I have family there. There is a reason so many people emigrate. The joke is there are more Jewish south Africans out of South Africa than in South Africa.
The community is warm and kind, really one of the nicest in the world. The country is completely backwards and it's not getting better it's getting worse. If I grew up there I'm not saying I would move out, it's very hard to leave such a community and such a comfortable life, but to live elsewhere and move there, is a bit nuts.

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 8:21 pm

Okay. Clearly some of this info is all second hand from people who have left.

And I not saying it’s not true. But it’s not all true.

It’s 6:15 am and I am trying to psych myself up to go for a run outside in the road.

The reason I need to psych myself up is because my kid is sick and was up in the night and I al exhausted. Not because of security. I go running 2-3 times a week on the road.

And yes loadshedding is an issue. Bothers people way more than the crime.

But the very Frum communities are beautiful. Not megushemedic at all. (And no-not because of crime. The more modern orthodox communities are much more into brand names and labels)but honestly I go to Brooklyn sometimes (I grew up in America) and it’s seems so brand and label obsessed and it’s weird for me to reconcile that with a Torah centered life style.

People are lovely. Yes private health care is expensive. But it covers EVERYTHING.
my kids braces, all dental, speech therapy. If I want to go to the Chiropracter. Etc…
(I pay less than $1000 a month for a family of 8 kah)

Cape Town is a much smaller Frum community. Joburg has multiple chareidish schools. (Share I Torah, Maharsha. The Cheder etc..) restaurants. Chalav yisroel etc.

amother

Almond

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 9:08 pm

I know people (Jewish and not) from SA who have left more recently. The problems with Eskom are the biggest. And they don't trust the government to fix it. Safety is a concern, but the power was the tipping point. Cape Town almost ran out of water a few years ago and some were worried the same could happen again.

The community itself, lovely, the Jews regretted having to leave it.

Bnei Berak 10

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 11:53 pm

It's got to be absolutely heart breaking for SA to see their country going backwards. Crying

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 20 2022, 11:57 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

It's got to be absolutely heart breaking for SA to see their country going backwards. Crying

My husband left 20 years ago and it saddens him still to see how his country is going to the dogs. Sad

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 12:15 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

My husband left 20 years ago and it saddens him still to see how his country is going to the dogs. Sad

"They can't even drive a wheel barrel and they want to drive a car"
Quoted to me in 1997 from a South African lady's father.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 12:15 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

"They can't even drive a wheel barrel and they want to drive a car"
Quoted to me in 1997 from a South African lady's father.

Huh? Is this about education?

Rappel

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 1:00 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Huh? Is this about education?

I assume it refers to the government's ability to manage a country, but your interpretation is interesting. Now I'm curious.

amother

Aster

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 2:40 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

"They can't even drive a wheel barrel and they want to drive a car"
Quoted to me in 1997 from a South African lady's father.

I think it's "wheelbarrow"

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 3:50 am

Rappel wrote:

I assume it refers to the government's ability to manage a country, but your interpretation is interesting. Now I'm curious.

Ah, that makes more sense. I thought it had something to do with the great divide between the rich and poor in SA.

amother

DarkCyan

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 4:03 am

amother Aster wrote:

Just to put things in perspective - when it comes to murders there are a number of US cities - nearly all with big Jewish populations that beat out Johannesburg - so please don't delude yourself that you are living in safety. Also interestingly certain crimes barely exist here - like school shootings and mass shootings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....._rate

13. Cape Town
22. St Louis
25. Baltimore
38. Memphis
42. Detroit
60. Johannesburg
66. Philadelphia

Of course when it comes to other crimes Johannesburg is worse but seems like Jews are attracted to dangerous cities...

The Detroit community has not been located in Detroit since the 1967 riots. The community is mostly in Southfield and Oak Park Michigan which are right outside Detroit, but not inside it.

racheli:)

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 4:19 am

I think we will go there for a holiday to meet the locals and hear their opinions.
Thank you all xx

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 4:46 am

Rappel wrote:

I assume it refers to the government's ability to manage a country, but your interpretation is interesting. Now I'm curious.

Correct assumption Smile

amother

Aster

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 4:48 am

racheli:) wrote:

I think we will go there for a holiday to meet the locals and hear their opinions.
Thank you all xx

Let me know when you're coming, would love to have you for a Shabbos Seuda. I'll send you an email address when the time comes, looking forward to meeting you:-)

amother

Aster

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 4:57 am

amother Seagreen wrote:

Hello fellow Joburger

1. Guaranteed you didn't grow up in SA - I don't think I've ever heard anyone in this country (besides my DH) use the word "megushamdik" LOL

2. You must be here a pretty long time if you describe the people here as "lovely" LOL

3. Which plan are you one? I think we're overpaying Surprised

amother

Aster

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 5:03 am

amother DarkCyan wrote:

The Detroit community has not been located in Detroit since the 1967 riots. The community is mostly in Southfield and Oak Park Michigan which are right outside Detroit, but not inside it.

The Jewish community in Johannesburg is also located in the suburbs and not in the city center where most of the crime takes place. I would say this is probably true for most of the cities where the crime rate is very high (Atlanta, Milwaukee, St Louis) the Jews don't actually live in the city center but nevertheless it's close by.

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 6:15 am

amother Almond wrote:

I remember that story about the water! That was scary.

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 21 2022, 6:16 am

Rappel wrote:

I assume it refers to the government's ability to manage a country, .

I hope so.