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Why does a Rebbe deserve something personal, but not a Morah
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amother




DarkCyan
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 12:43 am
amother Royalblue wrote:
Personally I think my son's rebbeim deserve more than my daughters teachers. They spend more time with them. They are kind and caring and make class exciting so that my boys are happy to go to school. They reach out to me frequently throughout the year, somerimes just to give positive feedback. Unfortunately I can't say the same for my daughters teachers. They complain the teachers are strict and I am horrified by some of the rules. I never hear from them. But that's my personal experience.

So sorry that’s your experience. Your daughters deserve better.
Nevertheless,
Ouch.
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amother




Ghostwhite
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 1:43 am
Listen.
I’m a Morah. I’d like to think I’m creating relationships with my students. My students enjoy my class BH, and I work very hard. Beyond curriculum prep.
I appreciate every gift. I remember the candy gift I got from a parent more then I remember the money amount on the amazing gift card the PTA gave me that went straight to diapers etc. Money is appreciated but the thought is appreciated more!
And it’s not bribery. It’s ‘hey they notice the effort I’m putting into the child’ and then I manage to find within me just a little more patience for that kid… it’s not bribery, it’s the appreciation.
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amother




Grape
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 6:09 am
amother Forsythia wrote:
Im putting down an idea that I think is not a good one. And very unfair. And really sexist.
I was giving my opinion. And apparently, according to the likes I got, many others agree with me.


It sounds like these are two separate schools and two separate emails went out. Just there is a lot of overlap in recipients because brither/sister. However each school does things their own way

I send to a brother sister school who are not coordinated at all on most things (and dont try to be,)
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amother




Grape
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:00 am
amother Watermelon wrote:
Saying rebbeim work more hours is apologetics.
Yes in some schools the rebbeiim might work one hour more than moros (in many places shacahris is included so they need to daven anyway) but facing the facts is that hourly men end up getting at least 20% more than women In most BY schools and are expecting bigger tips. It’s a problem.
Explain to me why my husband (with 0 degree, minimal teaching experience) is getting offers for similar in pay to what I am getting (with a Masters, teaching license, and 15 years experience ).
This amongst other things has contributed to why I am leaving teaching after this year.


Im just going to address this education thing as I've heard it before.

The reality is, in most yeahivish boys schools morning rebbeim have WAY more education than the kodesh teachers in the girls school....much more.

Most rebbeim get their position after 10 plus years post high school delving into the subject they are teaching. That is the equivalent of a PhD plus several post docs. And YES you can tell in how they teach the material that they understand it better. Even from the first grade rebbe.

Also, they have usually done a program like aish dos, which is more comprehensive then the seminary teaching courses.

Now the masters a few of the girls get....the vast majority of frum girls got theirs (in special ed, education, whatever) in under a year and a half after spending 6 months or less on their BA, plus seminary. The schools know this too. It's possible your program was more comprehensive, but those degrees have watered things down for you.

-----

Re hours, in my school the boys rebbeim are there until 2, vs the girls are 12:30 after starting later. The boys have school in Sunday, an hour later on Friday, very little vacation including NO WINTER BREAK and very little off before Tom tov, plus have an extra month of school. Snow days?...the rebbe has class on the phone for who ever wants it.

Re shachris, yes they need to daven shachris anyway but a job where you need to be there by 7:40 and then not be able to come home to help with the morning rush needs to be compensated for that.

--

One more thing. Dedication. Yes Dedication.

My boys rebbeim rarely miss school.
I asked my boys if the rebbe takes off for his kids chasunahs and they laughed at me and said of course he's there the day of and the day after (unless far oot). The boys usually dance with him! It is extremely extremely rare for my boys to have a sub in the morning for any reason.

Now, I'm not blaming the girls school teachers for taking off for their kid sick with strep, or a child's chasunah or bar mitzvah. They should have paid vacation days and be able to use them. (And I'm leaving maternity leave completely out of this,). They need to take care of their families.I fully support them in that.

Thing is, the rebbeim are not given that leeway... jobs that are much less flexible pay more for that. That is baked into the salary as well.



,
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singleagain




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:10 am
amother Grape wrote:
Im just going to address this education thing as I've heard it before.

The reality is, in most yeahivish boys schools morning rebbeim have WAY more education than the kodesh teachers in the girls school....much more.

Most rebbeim get their position after 10 plus years post high school delving into the subject they are teaching. That is the equivalent of a PhD plus several post docs. And YES you can tell in how they teach the material that they understand it better. Even from the first grade rebbe.

Also, they have usually done a program like aish dos, which is more comprehensive then the seminary teaching courses.

Now the masters a few of the girls get....the vast majority of frum girls got theirs (in special ed, education, whatever) in under a year and a half after spending 6 months or less on their BA, plus seminary. The schools know this too. It's possible your program was more comprehensive, but those degrees have watered things down for you.

-----

Re hours, in my school the boys rebbeim are there until 2, vs the girls are 12:30 after starting later. The boys have school in Sunday, an hour later on Friday, very little vacation including NO WINTER BREAK and very little off before Tom tov, plus have an extra month of school. Snow days?...the rebbe has class on the phone for who ever wants it.

Re shachris, yes they need to daven shachris anyway but a job where you need to be there by 7:40 and then not be able to come home to help with the morning rush needs to be compensated for that.

--

One more thing. Dedication. Yes Dedication.

My boys rebbeim rarely miss school.
I asked my boys if the rebbe takes off for his kids chasunahs and they laughed at me and said of course he's there the day of and the day after (unless far oot). The boys usually dance with him! It is extremely extremely rare for my boys to have a sub in the morning for any reason.

Now, I'm not blaming the girls school teachers for taking off for their kid sick with strep, or a child's chasunah or bar mitzvah. They should have paid vacation days and be able to use them. (And I'm leaving maternity leave completely out of this,). They need to take care of their families.I fully support them in that.

Thing is, the rebbeim are not given that leeway... jobs that are much less flexible pay more for that. That is baked into the salary as well.



,




Why are we okay with our girls getting less" dedicated" teachers that are boys? Why are we okay with our girls having someone go through a master's program in 6 month versus our boys who we insist have a ready after only 10 years of kollel? Why do we accept this sort of setup where the boys have much more intense days than the girls?

Maybe these are really the questions we should be asking. Why are we so okay with the school system the way it is?
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amother




Cerise
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 7:42 am
amother Grape wrote:
Im just going to address this education thing as I've heard it before.

The reality is, in most yeahivish boys schools morning rebbeim have WAY more education than the kodesh teachers in the girls school....much more.

Most rebbeim get their position after 10 plus years post high school delving into the subject they are teaching. That is the equivalent of a PhD plus several post docs. And YES you can tell in how they teach the material that they understand it better. Even from the first grade rebbe.

Also, they have usually done a program like aish dos, which is more comprehensive then the seminary teaching courses.

Now the masters a few of the girls get....the vast majority of frum girls got theirs (in special ed, education, whatever) in under a year and a half after spending 6 months or less on their BA, plus seminary. The schools know this too. It's possible your program was more comprehensive, but those degrees have watered things down for you.

-----

Re hours, in my school the boys rebbeim are there until 2, vs the girls are 12:30 after starting later. The boys have school in Sunday, an hour later on Friday, very little vacation including NO WINTER BREAK and very little off before Tom tov, plus have an extra month of school. Snow days?...the rebbe has class on the phone for who ever wants it.

Re shachris, yes they need to daven shachris anyway but a job where you need to be there by 7:40 and then not be able to come home to help with the morning rush needs to be compensated for that.

--

One more thing. Dedication. Yes Dedication.

My boys rebbeim rarely miss school.
I asked my boys if the rebbe takes off for his kids chasunahs and they laughed at me and said of course he's there the day of and the day after (unless far oot). The boys usually dance with him! It is extremely extremely rare for my boys to have a sub in the morning for any reason.

Now, I'm not blaming the girls school teachers for taking off for their kid sick with strep, or a child's chasunah or bar mitzvah. They should have paid vacation days and be able to use them. (And I'm leaving maternity leave completely out of this,). They need to take care of their families.I fully support them in that.

Thing is, the rebbeim are not given that leeway... jobs that are much less flexible pay more for that. That is baked into the salary as well.



,



Nope, nope, and nope. I have a Ph.D. Ten years of learning in kollel is lovely, but it's nothing like a graduate degree. And I fail to see how it prepares someone for teaching elementary school.

Also, most men who work outside klei kodesh go to minyan earlier than teachers do, not later. That 6am shacharis exists for a reason.

Yes, there are a lot of dedicated rebbeim out there. Great. But that's the job description. Pay them what you think they're worth, but don't pretend they have better skills or work longer hours than anyone else.
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Leahh




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:23 am
amother Strawberry wrote:
Rabbaim put in way more hours than Morah's and teachers do, and often have a closer or more personal relationship with their students. They do deserve more than teachers.

This
Op, it sounds like you don't have sons. I used to be very bothered by the attitude as well. As my boys are getting older and I am seeing the rebbe/child dynamic I understand it.
A rebbe puts in way more time, effort and energy than a teacher especially in a typical yeshivish boys yeshiva
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Raisin




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 8:27 am
My impression was that frum women usually have far more practical teaching training then men.

I think if women are teaching less hours, no question, that should be reflected in the gifts, but the disparity goes far beyond that.

And that Rebbi who never misses school - that's because he has a WIFE to take care of sick kids and dentist appointments and be on top of things on his childs wedding day. He is lucky to be able to devote so much time to his job because of his wife, he doesn't need a medal too! (where is hers???)

Plus Rebbeim get paid MORE for the extra hours.

Appreciate your kids female teachers properly, especially the devoted ones who have been years in the job. And if they are not dedicated it is because of the horrible sexist attitudes in this thread, reflected in the lower pay, less appreciation and less gifts.
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amother




Oatmeal
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 9:38 am
amother Ghostwhite wrote:
Listen.
I’m a Morah. I’d like to think I’m creating relationships with my students. My students enjoy my class BH, and I work very hard. Beyond curriculum prep.
I appreciate every gift. I remember the candy gift I got from a parent more then I remember the money amount on the amazing gift card the PTA gave me that went straight to diapers etc. Money is appreciated but the thought is appreciated more!
And it’s not bribery. It’s ‘hey they notice the effort I’m putting into the child’ and then I manage to find within me just a little more patience for that kid… it’s not bribery, it’s the appreciation.


I don't see why teachers more than any other profession deserve "appreciation" especially of the monetary type. You get your paycheck. I do write notes thanking teachers, I verbally express it whenever I see them.
But if you want to express appreciation monetarily as a group, then that maybe isn't bribery. The recipient doesn't know who gave how much. There is just a name.
But when you hand a check or gift card to a teacher while they still teach your kid--- it is bribery. Plain and simple. Subconsciously you want the teacher to treat your kid better. Some moms on here even say that they pay for better treatment, more attention etc.
The fact that you have more patience within you? You were bribed to have it. You react differently because of a gift given. Even if that gift was chocolate.
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amother




Lavender
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 9:54 am
amother Oatmeal wrote:
I don't see why teachers more than any other profession deserve "appreciation" especially of the monetary type. You get your paycheck. I do write notes thanking teachers, I verbally express it whenever I see them.
But if you want to express appreciation monetarily as a group, then that maybe isn't bribery. The recipient doesn't know who gave how much. There is just a name.
But when you hand a check or gift card to a teacher while they still teach your kid--- it is bribery. Plain and simple. Subconsciously you want the teacher to treat your kid better. Some moms on here even say that they pay for better treatment, more attention etc.
The fact that you have more patience within you? You were bribed to have it. You react differently because of a gift given. Even if that gift was chocolate.

That's because it's a service type job, and the American culture is to tip for service jobs. Some service type jobs, it's seen as tacky to tip with cash, so gifts are given instead.
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amother




Cerise
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 9:58 am
amother Lavender wrote:
That's because it's a service type job, and the American culture is to tip for service jobs. Some service type jobs, it's seen as tacky to tip with cash, so gifts are given instead.


So the question is whether you want to treat a teacher like a trash collector or an accountant. I don't tip the accountant who prepares my taxes. She's a professional, and I pay for her services. Shouldn't our teachers be professionals and not service providers?
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amother




Sapphire
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 10:09 am
amother Strawberry wrote:
Rabbaim put in way more hours than Morah's and teachers do, and often have a closer or more personal relationship with their students. They do deserve more than teachers.

False
False
False
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amother




Lemon
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 10:14 am
Op, are you new to the school? Pretty sure I send to the same ones and they've sent this out the last couple years. I don't think anyone really likes it but it isn't worth making a big deal IMO but you can always send in some feedback. I think what actually happened is that boys principal feels strongly that the rebbeim shouldn't have a coordinated gelt program but it has been done that way in the girls school for a long time and girls principal is fine with it. So, the Menahel just removed the rebbeim. I know it reads badly and I don't think any parents really get it or like it but it's less of a big picture statement on men vs women and more another thing that the schools do separately, which is another story. You'll notice when it comes to other things like days off, organizing classes and a few others that the schools don't operate the same bc it's separate principals who have different opinions and the menahel is newer so some things changed over there.
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amother




Lavender
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 10:15 am
amother Cerise wrote:
So the question is whether you want to treat a teacher like a trash collector or an accountant. I don't tip the accountant who prepares my taxes. She's a professional, and I pay for her services. Shouldn't our teachers be professionals and not service providers?

The service done by an accountant completing your paperwork is nothing like the human interaction a teacher or, say, therapist has with your child. It's a different human element added in. That's why. Much more personal.
(And lots of businesses do send holiday gifts to their accountant.)
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notshanarishona




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 10:45 am
amother Grape wrote:
Im just going to address this education thing as I've heard it before.

The reality is, in most yeahivish boys schools morning rebbeim have WAY more education than the kodesh teachers in the girls school....much more.

Most rebbeim get their position after 10 plus years post high school delving into the subject they are teaching. That is the equivalent of a PhD plus several post docs. And YES you can tell in how they teach the material that they understand it better. Even from the first grade rebbe.

Also, they have usually done a program like aish dos, which is more comprehensive then the seminary teaching courses.

Now the masters a few of the girls get....the vast majority of frum girls got theirs (in special ed, education, whatever) in under a year and a half after spending 6 months or less on their BA, plus seminary. The schools know this too. It's possible your program was more comprehensive, but those degrees have watered things down for you.

-----

Re hours, in my school the boys rebbeim are there until 2, vs the girls are 12:30 after starting later. The boys have school in Sunday, an hour later on Friday, very little vacation including NO WINTER BREAK and very little off before Tom tov, plus have an extra month of school. Snow days?...the rebbe has class on the phone for who ever wants it.

Re shachris, yes they need to daven shachris anyway but a job where you need to be there by 7:40 and then not be able to come home to help with the morning rush needs to be compensated for that.

--

One more thing. Dedication. Yes Dedication.

My boys rebbeim rarely miss school.
I asked my boys if the rebbe takes off for his kids chasunahs and they laughed at me and said of course he's there the day of and the day after (unless far oot). The boys usually dance with him! It is extremely extremely rare for my boys to have a sub in the morning for any reason.

Now, I'm not blaming the girls school teachers for taking off for their kid sick with strep, or a child's chasunah or bar mitzvah. They should have paid vacation days and be able to use them. (And I'm leaving maternity leave completely out of this,). They need to take care of their families.I fully support them in that.

Thing is, the rebbeim are not given that leeway... jobs that are much less flexible pay more for that. That is baked into the salary as well.



,


Oh please.
My husband learned in kollel for 10 years, that didn’t in any way teach him how to teach elementary school. Learning gemara makes one an expert in gemara. even if one is teaching gemara they still need to learn how to teach, how to manage a classroom, etc.
The 6 week Torah Umesorah course he took was in no way comparable to a Masters degree or even a Bachelor’s.

Every school culture is different but I see the Rebeiim missing plenty of school. I don’t know of a single Rebbe who came in on the day they made a chassunah.

And again, I am comparing the hourly rate.

Obviously people who work more hours should get paid more but when you break it down their hourly starting rate in many schools is close to double that of a Morah.

I have even taught 1st grade boys kodesh before, having to do exactly the same hours as a 1st grade Rebbe , and we didn’t get paid anywhere near the same.


No one is supporting their family on a half day Morah salary. A Rebbe’s salary one can do that on.

Yes , their are differences in the position, especially the older you get, but to pretend men aren’t getting paid more just because they are men is untrue and gaslighting all of us who have worked in the system and seen differently.
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mha3484




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 12:17 pm
This may sound nuts but I feel like in certain systems, rebbeim have a heavy emotional burden since a boys negative association with learning has huge implications. My sons rebbe last year at orientation said your son will learn gemara every day from today until he dies. If he fails gemara he fails Yiddishkeit and it’s on me to make sure that doesn’t happen. The early years of learning gemara like 5th,6th grade can’t leave a boy feeling like a failure. That’s a heavy responsibility. Do moros teaching girls feel the same? I genuinely want to know since my girls are still very little. A girls identity is not as attached to how they can learn like boys are.
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amother




Oatmeal
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 2:00 pm
amother Lavender wrote:
That's because it's a service type job, and the American culture is to tip for service jobs. Some service type jobs, it's seen as tacky to tip with cash, so gifts are given instead.


So it isn't a "community helper" role? It isn't a profession versus a job?

Tips are for low level service jobs, like waitresses. A nurse provides a service but you don't regularly tip your pediatricians office. You can't tip your therapist either. It goes against most professional ethics codes. You say thank you and that is it.

And this still doesn't answer the main issue-- that you are bribing a teacher to look out/have more patience for your kid.
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amother




Oatmeal
 

Post Thu, Nov 24 2022, 2:25 pm
mha3484 wrote:
This may sound nuts but I feel like in certain systems, rebbeim have a heavy emotional burden since a boys negative association with learning has huge implications. My sons rebbe last year at orientation said your son will learn gemara every day from today until he dies. If he fails gemara he fails Yiddishkeit and it’s on me to make sure that doesn’t happen. The early years of learning gemara like 5th,6th grade can’t leave a boy feeling like a failure. That’s a heavy responsibility. Do moros teaching girls feel the same? I genuinely want to know since my girls are still very little. A girls identity is not as attached to how they can learn like boys are.


I think a big issue is that many don't believe the moros have the same responsibility. Yes girls' identity are not revolving around gemara learning like boys. (Girls education is important and we should not forget that).

But teachers do hold a tremendous power. They can destroy a girls self esteem, self confidence, emotional health, social status in a classroom... with just a comment or two. They should feel the same heaviness in their burden.
But this needs a spinoff.
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