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Age Appropriate Consequence Age 6/7
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 12:35 pm
Disagree.

Tantrums are manipulation.

They are,allowed to cry but not carry on and on and on, upsetting everyone else- which is the goal.
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BrisketBoss




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 12:40 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Disagree.

Tantrums are manipulation.

They are,allowed to cry but not carry on and on and on, upsetting everyone else- which is the goal.


Really?

That's very interesting.

If that is their goal, then why is it? What do you think?
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amother
IndianRed


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 12:44 pm
amother OP wrote:
Good morning smart Mamas, I am experiencing a breakdown in discipline with my very beautiful smart wonderful daughter, and am currently dealing with tantrums, defiance, leaving messes, and generally trying my nerves.

I need to find some age-appropriate consequences for her behavior and my mind is blanking. Corporal punishment is not an option.

She loves to read, write, color, and listen to story cd's. Screen time is limited to vacation and summer. She is taking piano lessons and hates practicing.

Please help a highly frustrated mama that is trying to do the right thing.

Read this book.
Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be https://a.co/d/8tB6O8h
I think it'll help you with your frustration and see maybe a diff healthy method that has helped so many.
Best of luck. Parenting isn't easy.. But can be rewarding
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amother
IndianRed


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 12:46 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Disagree.

Tantrums are manipulation.

They are,allowed to cry but not carry on and on and on, upsetting everyone else- which is the goal.

I couldn't disagree with this more.
Are all children manipulators?
This is such a corrupt way of trying to understand children.
Children need to learn to communicate properly if they are having tantrums they obviously don't know how to properly effectively communicate.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 12:47 pm
BrisketBoss wrote:
Really?

That's very interesting.

If that is their goal, then why is it? What do you think?


Because throwing tantrums work.

Sometimes it gets mothers to change their no to yes.

Sometimes it intimidates mother from ever saying no, knowing they will have to deal with tantrum.

And it getting revenge on mother for saying no, because child knows it is aggravation for mother.

OP wrote how much frustration the tantrums cause. That is the goal.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 12:54 pm
When my child was 3, he used to throw tantrums when I said no.

Like if he wanted cookies right before supper and I said after supper.

I tried ignoring like the books say bit he went on and on and on.... until I snapped and gave him a potch.

This happened a few times and I realized that DS goal is to get me angry - then he wins.

It was worth a potch for satisfaction of upsetting me.

So next time he tantrumned I locked myself in room, turned on music and read magazines. I did not get upset, I was having a break. I would not come out until screaming stopped.

When I came out DS started screaming again. I went back into my room until he stopped.

DS stopped all tantrumming. Since his tantrums could not upset me,
there was no point.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 12:58 pm
amother IndianRed wrote:
I couldn't disagree with this more.
Are all children manipulators?
This is such a corrupt way of trying to understand children.
Children need to learn to communicate properly if they are having tantrums they obviously don't know how to properly effectively communicate.


I didn't say ALL children.

But I agree with teaching respectful communication.

So teach DD to talk respectfully she doesn't want to help when asked

Please mommy, can I finish this chapter first?

Or

Please Momny, I am so tired. Can I be excused?

Or please mommy I have a major test...
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amother
Melon


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 1:04 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
When my child was 3, he used to throw tantrums when I said no.

Like if he wanted cookies right before supper and I said after supper.

I tried ignoring like the books say bit he went on and on and on.... until I snapped and gave him a potch.

This happened a few times and I realized that DS goal is to get me angry - then he wins.

It was worth a potch for satisfaction of upsetting me.

So next time he tantrumned I locked myself in room, turned on music and read magazines. I did not get upset, I was having a break. I would not come out until screaming stopped.

When I came out DS started screaming again. I went back into my room until he stopped.

DS stopped all tantrumming. Since his tantrums could not upset me,
there was no point.


Sounds a lot like my mom. I had a bad day in school (as a preteen), came home and sulked. What I was waiting for was mom to inquire and validate. Instead she would ignore me till I came around (realized nobody was going to help me feel better).

It taught me not to sulk - and to have no emotional relationship with my mom.


As for the op - I don’t have any advice as I don’t believe in rules, prizes and consequences.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 1:04 pm
OP I highly recommend the book
How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk.

Also- is a natural consequence possible?
Or “Esti, it seems like you could use some quiet time. Why don’t you go in your room with a calm book or CD and come out when you feel up to it?”
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 1:14 pm
amother Melon wrote:
Sounds a lot like my mom. I had a bad day in school (as a preteen), came home and sulked. What I was waiting for was mom to inquire and validate. Instead she would ignore me till I came around (realized nobody was going to help me feel better).

It taught me not to sulk - and to have no emotional relationship with my mom.


As for the op - I don’t have any advice as I don’t believe in rules, prizes and consequences.


I definitely asked my children what was wrong if they seemed upset.

Totally not the same.

BH, have great relationship with children, children in law, and grandchildren.
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amother
Razzmatazz


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 3:36 pm
Op, sounds like you could use a parenting book. This doesn't mean you are a bad parent. It's just a way to learn how to parent effectively. Where you can teach you child communication and maturity while keeping your sanity and your relationship with her strong. This is not something that everyone just knows how to do without learning
Also, some children are more difficult than others and need a very informed parent whereas other kids you can just wing it with them in terms of parenting.

I suggest you read " how to talk so kids will listen..." And also " the explosive child" they were life changing for me and as a parent and educator, I recommend those methods. It takes commitment and some work to change the way you usually parent but the payoff will be spectacular!!

Please don't just ignore or punish. It may work with animals but children are complex and have delicate psyches. There are gentle and very effective methods in the above books and the results will be stronger, empowered, communicative children who feel loved and safe physically and emotionally.
Think of it as an investment in the relationships that your child will have in the future. You will be preparing them for lifelong success in interpersonal relationships.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 3:42 pm
Thanks all for replying.

To clarify all emotions are ok, and expressing them is ok too. It's how we express them that could be problematic. I keep reminding my kids that we talk with words, not our hands. That's problem number 1. She started talking with her hands and teeth.

Defiance. I ask her to clean up her toys. She'll just say no, and keep repeating the no time after time. I tell her to put her laundry in the hamper, come eat dinner, and get dressed in the morning, just a flat-out no.

I do not hit and I will not hit. That is not an option whatsoever.

BrisketBoss, I agree with you that things need to be explained. I have already talked till I'm blue in the face. There need to be some consequences. Notice I did not say punishment. As an adult, there are consequences for our actions.

Best Bubby I agree that very often tantrums are manipulation. Not always, but sometimes kids will use it to try to get you to change your mind instead of having conversations. Age appropriate at 2-4 years old. Not so much at 7.

She also switched to a large school for elementary from a really small preschool. Many of the behaviors could be from overwhelm and needing to find her place in the world. I still won't tolerate behaviors that can harm her or others.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 3:43 pm
Seems like the consensus is to read the explosive child and how to speak so children will listen.

I will check these 2 out. Thanks all
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 3:45 pm
Let us know if the "expert" advice worked.
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amother
Melon


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 3:48 pm
amother OP wrote:
Thanks all for replying.

To clarify all emotions are ok, and expressing them is ok too. It's how we express them that could be problematic. I keep reminding my kids that we talk with words, not our hands. That's problem number 1. She started talking with her hands and teeth.

Defiance. I ask her to clean up her toys. She'll just say no, and keep repeating the no time after time. I tell her to put her laundry in the hamper, come eat dinner, and get dressed in the morning, just a flat-out no.

I do not hit and I will not hit. That is not an option whatsoever.

BrisketBoss, I agree with you that things need to be explained. I have already talked till I'm blue in the face. There need to be some consequences. Notice I did not say punishment. As an adult, there are consequences for our actions.

Best Bubby I agree that very often tantrums are manipulation. Not always, but sometimes kids will use it to try to get you to change your mind instead of having conversations. Age appropriate at 2-4 years old. Not so much at 7.

She also switched to a large school for elementary from a really small preschool. Many of the behaviors could be from overwhelm and needing to find her place in the world. I still won't tolerate behaviors that can harm her or others.


So you want to punish her (give consequences) for being overwhelmed by her new school??..
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seltzermom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 4:10 pm
Discipline is all very nice but needed much less than we imagine.

I’m not talking about letting kids steer the way and following them like sheep. I’m saying that most kids enjoy being good for the most part.

Often our children’s disobedience is more of a trigger for ourselves then a real issue for the child.

It’s more beneficial to your child, for you to ask yourself, what comes up for me when my child behaves this way?

Often it’s a very vulnerable part of ourselves that is so dependent on the child behaving.

When we understand that better first. And tend to our own vulnerable side then we can approach our child in a more mature manner.

Less from a place of helplessness or fear or anger and fury. But from a gentler place. That comes from us feeling safe with ourselves first.

Best bubby you are giving advice with good intentions. But there’s a real rigidity in your perception of things. You believe in forcing compliance and that that’s what people need. But sadly there’s more to lose than to gain with such a method.

There’s a big part of the personality that gets compromised in such a relationship. There’s more to a child than the rules. Full stop. And in your method there’s no mercy while enforcing rules. Rules are more important than the tender heart of the child.

Any child raised this way will have a big part of self that is cut off from them. They will be great rule followers. But creativity, freedom and ability to innovate becomes extremely compromised.
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nicole81




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 4:39 pm
Natural consequences are always the best. If she leaves messes, then she needs to clean them up. If she doesn't, then she can't take out anything new to play with until it's done.

If she can't clean up in the timeframe you specify, then you can pick it up yourself and put the items away, not to be used by her again until she can prove she's earned the trust to clean up after herself.

Let me qualify this by saying a big mess can be overwhelming for a young kid, so I would start off by helping her and make it a cooperative activity at first.

Re tantrums, just let them pass and then talk to her afterwards to find the reason. Help her out words to her emotions (my 6 yo recently learned to articulate when she's overwhelmed) and give her strategies on how to handle these emotions, and even practice them, to try to avoid tantrums in the future.

I didn't read the whole thread, but regarding saying no to a child, I am a huge proponent of telling kids why I'm saying no. Even at toddler ages. The reason can be for their personal health and safety, for my own sanity, because there are more important priorities at the moment, etc. But I don't think just telling kids no and expecting them to fall into line blindly is terribly effective, or healthy, long term. By giving them reasons, we're teaching them that things aren't arbitrary and we need to evaluate situations holistically, as well as empathy, organization, prioritization, etc.

If you can give more specific examples, we can help you think through consequences but really, whenever things come up, think about what would naturally follow.

And more importantly, make sure you praise your child for what she does well. Research shows that for every negative statement/reprimand, children need six positive (not neutral) comments to balance it out and keep their self esteem in tact.
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amother
Mintcream


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 5:48 pm
amother OP wrote:
Thanks all for replying.

To clarify all emotions are ok, and expressing them is ok too. It's how we express them that could be problematic. I keep reminding my kids that we talk with words, not our hands. That's problem number 1. She started talking with her hands and teeth.

Defiance. I ask her to clean up her toys. She'll just say no, and keep repeating the no time after time. I tell her to put her laundry in the hamper, come eat dinner, and get dressed in the morning, just a flat-out no.

I do not hit and I will not hit. That is not an option whatsoever.

BrisketBoss, I agree with you that things need to be explained. I have already talked till I'm blue in the face. There need to be some consequences. Notice I did not say punishment. As an adult, there are consequences for our actions.

Best Bubby I agree that very often tantrums are manipulation. Not always, but sometimes kids will use it to try to get you to change your mind instead of having conversations. Age appropriate at 2-4 years old. Not so much at 7.

She also switched to a large school for elementary from a really small preschool. Many of the behaviors could be from overwhelm and needing to find her place in the world. I still won't tolerate behaviors that can harm her or others.


Hi OP, I found that some kids are completely allergic to any whiff of a power struggle, and that includes direct commands.

I agree with Nicole about natural consequences, but I try to make them follow the order of things to do. Ex., you can try to say, come clean up your toys so we'll have time for hot cocoa.

Iow, it has to be completely impersonal. It's not about you or her, it's just the rule. We don't have hot cocoa when toys are all over the floor, so we have to pick them up first. If it takes too long, then there won't be time.

It's not even so much a consequence as explaining the time frame and the rules. If that doesn't work right now because she's still so locked into the power struggle mode, I would try to avoid power struggles completely, for now.

If that means bending down and picking up the toys yourself, then so be it. The trick is to play it super chill. This isn't you giving her a directive, then giving up and doing it yourself and letting her "win".

This is you saying, we're going to work together to get this done. Just say, Come, let's pick up the toys. And pretend not to notice that you did it all yourself. Try to "catch" her helping, even a little, and acknowledge it. That also validates that she didn't win the power struggle because you're in this together. If she feels like you're on her team, I think the power struggle mode should start to fade.

Also, I get that you're frustrated, but please don't call her defiant. You want a child who knows her own mind, that's a good thing! Try to remind yourself of that when she triggers you. She's not defiant, she's independent minded and iy"h, that midah will serve her well.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 7:32 pm
seltzermom wrote:


Best bubby you are giving advice with good intentions. But there’s a real rigidity in your perception of things. You believe in forcing compliance and that that’s what people need. But sadly there’s more to lose than to gain with such a method.

There’s a big part of the personality that gets compromised in such a relationship. There’s more to a child than the rules. Full stop. And in your method there’s no mercy while enforcing rules. Rules are more important than the tender heart of the child.

Any child raised this way will have a big part of self that is cut off from them. They will be great rule followers. But creativity, freedom and ability to innovate becomes extremely compromised.


Kibbutz Av v'Eim is a mitzvah in the Torah like Shobbos and Kosher.

It is,a big AVEIRAH for a child to constantly say
NO to a parent.

Would you say if a 6 y.o. wants to eat Traif or be mechallel shobbos we should just let her because it will damage the relationship?

Also, it is very wrong to say I show no mercy.

I gave examples of how a child can respectfully
Protest a parental request:

Mommy, please can I finish the chapter first?

Mommy, I am soooo tired. Please can I be excused?

Mommy, I have a big test tomorrow. Please can I be excused?

I have plenty of mercy.

But Chutzpah is an AVEIRAH and we have an obligation of Chinuch.
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amother
DarkOrange


 

Post Sun, Nov 27 2022, 8:13 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
DD is allowed to cry.....in her room.

When DD screams and cries in front of mother, she is punishing mother for saying no. She knows it is very upsetting for mother.

When your child is crying you should be with her. We don’t behaviorally train our kids like dogs. ABA can really be an awful thing you know.
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