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Do u find all the "art project" shul womens events insulting
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amother




Ghostwhite
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:09 am
BrisketBoss wrote:
Fancy salad is one of the most exciting things in the world to me. Throw in some sushi and I'm THERE. 😁


If I'm leaving the house in the evening (with all the effort that entails), I will do it for nothing less than fleishigs (or verrrry nice milchigs) and preferably with alcohol available. Salad, even with sushi, just doesn't cut it for me. I actually get asked all the time by friends why I never come to these things, and I'm very open about why lol.
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amother




Marigold
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:23 am
I don't find it insulting at all.

We have both learning too.

A wonderful creative outlet to enjoy and socialize. Nice way for newcomers to meet and greet as well.

Men have lox and bagels breakfast, kiddush club ....does that take away from their learning? no not at all.

If it doesn't speak to you then just don't go.

No need to take it personally.

Good opportunity to be dlkz. Some people are chalishing to meet friends and make new ones as well.
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vandm




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:23 am
I thought it was a post covid thing, but I guess you are right. More artsy (which they are very boring to me) than study
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amother




Brickred
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:30 am
I would think these events are for social purposes. Nice crafts are way more conducive to that then shiurim. There are shiurim and activity/craft events, and I when I want down time and socialization I definitely would choose a craft or activity kind of get together.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:31 am
amother OP wrote:
seems that, at most shuls, the vast majority of women's events are silly arts and crafts projects. learning events are far, far less common, in my experience. I find this insulting and patronizing, as if only men are fit to use their brains and learn something jewish... while women are dumb little children who need sit at little chairs and do finger-painting.

sure, some arts and crafts events can be great. but there should also be women's learning events.

does anyone else feel this way? why are things like this? do women prefer the arts and crafts to learning?


Omg. I wish. Our nsheis only do speeches. None of the shuls I know do paint nights and stuff.

That would be so much fun. There's never anything artsy in my circles going on unless I'm organizing it.
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amother




Hosta
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:42 am
I really hate those things…, baking demos and lectures on organizing closets and all that. But the fact that they exist and are well attended must mean I’m a minority. B”H with some effort I’m able to find and create my own learning opportunities.
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amother




Marigold
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 10:48 am
Like dating...people get to know each other through these activities.

Not either or.
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AlwaysGrateful




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:01 am
We have plenty of learning opportunities for women in our shul/community.

At the same time, I was once at a "planning committee" for a women's melava malka (totally not my thing, I think someone convinced me to come with them), and they were tossing around these "great" ideas about how they could have multiple stations around the room with fun activities at each! Cake decorating! And flower arranging! And a fun craft! And...

I was torn between laughing and crying. Everyone else seemed excited about all of these things. They were "so much fun"! To me, they sounded like torture! Or like middle school all over again.

I think I'm just a different "type" than the people who are generally on these committees. Maybe that means I should attend more of them and get more people like myself to attend them. And be socially adept enough to speak up and give my opinions and ideas a chance.

Probably not happening any time in the near future. So art projects will continue...
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amother




Marigold
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:25 am
majority rules...most women would not prefer a beer tasting event.
if you and your group do then you could probably arrange one
whoever is doing the work gets to choose
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ruchelbuckle




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:27 am
my hypotheses-- keep in mind is that in many communities/shuls, you will have women who have a wide range of skill levels in terms of learning. So it's hard to do a learning based activity for ladies that will appeal to everyone. Even very knowledgable women might not have very strong textual skills that make it challenging for them to participate in such an activity. (that's just my guess).
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amother




Raspberry
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:39 am
I am insulted. Yeah, I like a good craft or two. And I don't mind some salads or sushi. But for every event to be so flimsy and brainless is insulting to me. I hate baking. I cook because I have to.
The learning programs women can go to are all fluffy.
I would much rather delve into deep meforshim. Learn actual halacha where we can ask questions, why...
Shavuos night my shul has programs for men and women. But I would much rather then men's classes than the women's. But I can't go to them.

I go to a class to use my brain. Not some fluffy talk. Or what someone else learned and broke down into tiny pieces where no thinking is necessary by the participants.
I want the steak- not some prechewed baby food.
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socialbutterfly




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 11:48 am
I would and do love such an events! Don’t find it patronizing at all. Especially because there are many ladies shiurim and chaburahs already. More so, these events are planned by women in the community usually. They want to do it! It’s not like men are telling us to do arts n crafts.

ETA: Those of you who find it insulting should definitely speak up and make a change. If nobody knows what interests you, the artistic activities will continue Smile
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 12:22 pm
ruchelbuckle wrote:
my hypotheses-- keep in mind is that in many communities/shuls, you will have women who have a wide range of skill levels in terms of learning. So it's hard to do a learning based activity for ladies that will appeal to everyone. Even very knowledgable women might not have very strong textual skills that make it challenging for them to participate in such an activity. (that's just my guess).


how's this different than for a men's class? surely in many communities, the men have a wide range of skill levels / knowledge...
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 12:24 pm
amother Marigold wrote:
majority rules...most women would not prefer a beer tasting event.
if you and your group do then you could probably arrange one
whoever is doing the work gets to choose


"tyranny of the majority" (I.e., the principle that 51% tell the other 49% what to do) isn't a healthy way for a community to function. you can't please everyone, but whoever is doing the work should still try to reach a broader base rather than just do whatever they themselves want. otherwise it's not a community event and it's, instead, just a group of cliquey bossy women in the in-crowd.
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amother




DarkGreen
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 12:33 pm
amother OP wrote:
"tyranny of the majority" (I.e., the principle that 51% tell the other 49% what to do) isn't a healthy way for a community to function. you can't please everyone, but whoever is doing the work should still try to reach a broader base rather than just do whatever they themselves want. otherwise it's not a community event and it's, instead, just a group of cliquey bossy women in the in-crowd.

OP, usually people who are capable of managing a crowd are not the type to like deep learning such as you are describing.
I love to learn in depth and have great intellectual discussions but it wont happen at our shul's melave malkas.
and I also dont like many speakers, not because they are not wonderful, but I find it is more entertainment than actual intellect.
I suggest you do your own thing. Make your own shiur on zoom etc independently of your shul.
you will attract the kind of people that think like you.
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amother




Daffodil
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:06 pm
Should I be offended that the last sisterhood event was sushi and scents? I am very fragrant sensitive.
Personally, my preference is an art project.


There is learning available to women on many different academic levels and subjects multiple times a week, both in person and virtually to accommodate schedules. Some are for women and some are co-ed. (and some are b’chevruta)

They try to have a variety of different activities to appeal to everyone. Additionally, a social event is designed to be social and flexible. A shuir is not, you sit quietly in your seat.

FYI we have a scholar in residence this Shabbos and it is a woman! (Her lectures are open to all)
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:23 pm
amother OP wrote:
seems that, at most shuls, the vast majority of women's events are silly arts and crafts projects. learning events are far, far less common, in my experience. I find this insulting and patronizing, as if only men are fit to use their brains and learn something jewish... while women are dumb little children who need sit at little chairs and do finger-painting.

sure, some arts and crafts events can be great. but there should also be women's learning events.

does anyone else feel this way? why are things like this? do women prefer the arts and crafts to learning?
So why dont you initiate such an idea?
In my community there are never arts and craft evenings. And if there would be it would be for couples and not just for women, but those events are so far and few in between. We have shiurim and learning events, for everyone.
And you say that its this way in most shuls? I have actually never heard of such a thing as arts and crafts women's evenings.
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amother




Linen
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:23 pm
amother OP wrote:
seems that, at most shuls, the vast majority of women's events are silly arts and crafts projects. learning events are far, far less common, in my experience. I find this insulting and patronizing, as if only men are fit to use their brains and learn something jewish... while women are dumb little children who need sit at little chairs and do finger-painting.

sure, some arts and crafts events can be great. but there should also be women's learning events.

does anyone else feel this way? why are things like this? do women prefer the arts and crafts to learning?


Wouldnt bother me in the slightest.
I have enough things occupying my intellectual mind between my job, household, kids, and the years and years of academic schooling that I had in my past...I would love an opportunity to just mingle and chill over an art project. (No need to call it "arts and crafts")
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amother




Smokey
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:33 pm
My shul has a variety of events to appeal to as many people as possible. We do have shiurim, which I personally rarely attend. By 8PM I'm usually too tired for anything intellectual and I have no desire to go out to a shiur where I run the risk of falling asleep and embarrassing myself. Actually, during covid I was much more likely to sign on to a Zoom shiur from home where I could be dressed comfortably with my camera off and listen as long as I liked or doze if it didn't hold my attention and no one was the wiser.

We have the cooking/artsy events too and I go to most of those for the socializing aspect even though I'm not particularly artistic. I can push myself at night for something active but not for something passive and frankly, learning how to make a babka or a cheeseboard or a resin challah board while shmoozing with friends and laughing at our mishaps is far more fun than sitting through a shiur. I don't find these events insulting at all.
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amother




Dill
 

Post Tue, Nov 29 2022, 1:35 pm
Why don't you offer other ideas of entertainment to the shul committee? Seems really silly to get offended over this. Sometimes people make a huge deal over things instead of just letting the right people know their preferences.
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