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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Retroactive Annulment of Giyyur?
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mali




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:36 am
freisadsima wrote:
You know what knowledgable rabbonim did? They found a halachic loophold of some sorts I assume and nothing was said or done to make that women's children into mamzerim.
do you know of a particular case? what kind of halachic loophole can there be? she's an aishes ish!! the case you bring is very sad, but halacha and emotions are two different things. I know of such a story that actually happened with a very frum woman, who was misinformed about the death of her husband, and sadly, her children are mamzeirim. there was no way out!
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:37 am
I'd like an explanation as to how Eternal Jewish Family has been able to 'get away' with converting the [gentile] in an intermarried couple if 'converting for the spouse' can be a nullifying reason for a conversion.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:40 am
There is the same type of halachic loophole that was used by Rav Goren to lehatir the two mamzeirim some 40 years ago...you have to go back to the woman's first wedding and find something that makes it invalid. If you look hard enough...turns out that in many cases you can find...down to the business of a woman not paying attention during the kiddushin and accepting it in her heart or something like that...in any case it was possible to lehatir the kids born after the war but I assume that the rabbonim don't publicize these details because it is really searcing hard for a halachic loophole, which we wouldn't want to use in peacetime and under any normal types of circumstances...

Same BTW goes for Zvi Zohar's other pilegesh suggestion which is a shanda...we don't want to allow something like that which can break down the basis of the Jewish community. Better to go back and lehatir having more than one wife if that's the problem of too few men and too many women...but he is right halachically....there is a loophole...just chas vecholilo that we should use it...
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:40 am
mali wrote:
freisadsima wrote:
You know what knowledgable rabbonim did? They found a halachic loophold of some sorts I assume and nothing was said or done to make that women's children into mamzerim.
do you know of a particular case? what kind of halachic loophole can there be? she's an aishes ish!! the case you bring is very sad, but halacha and emotions are two different things. I know of such a story that actually happened with a very frum woman, who was misinformed about the death of her husband, and sadly, her children are mamzeirim. there was no way out!


It's possible that since she can't produce a Ketubah from the first marriage the Beit Din will rule that her first marriage was not a Halachic marriage.
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mali




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:41 am
Quote:
I'd like an explanation as to how Eternal Jewish Family has been able to 'get away' with converting the [gentile] in an intermarried couple if 'converting for the spouse' can be a nullifying reason for a conversion.
yesha, there's actually a tshuva by r' moshe feinstein about a similar case (the mother converted in a conservative beis din beforehand), and the mother and children were allowed to convert.
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BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:47 am
mali wrote:
Quote:
I'd like an explanation as to how Eternal Jewish Family has been able to 'get away' with converting the [gentile] in an intermarried couple if 'converting for the spouse' can be a nullifying reason for a conversion.
yesha, there's actually a tshuva by r' moshe feinstein about a similar case (the mother converted in a conservative beis din beforehand), and the mother and children were allowed to convert.


So why is this batch of Rabbis not giving these people the same courtesy? Why does it seem like they're rushing to invalidate thousands of conversions rather than give them an opportunity to either reconvert or at least defend their practice of Judaism in the time since their conversion?
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ima25




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:47 am
My mother converted according a a conservative tradition, because that was what was available in her town. Although she and my father thought it was a legitimate way to observe Judaism at the time, and they kept the mitzvos as dictated by their community, which was very lacking. After I was bas mitzva'd they wanted to make aliya, and by that time there was a frum rabbi in town, who said the conversion had not been kosher, none of the kids were jewish, even though we were raised with the education of jewish children, and we would have to undergo a conversion ourselves. no one, not my mother, none of the children, stayed on the derech, until I was old enough to marry, then had to undergo another conversion... don't know how I feel about it all, except that I feel I was born jewish, because my mother's intention and devotion was true, and I was raised with this devotion and intention, however thourough the practice. ithink my brothers and sisters may be rightous gentiles, for although they would give the shirts off their backs, chessed is a huge part of their lives, G-d is not much of a thought to them.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 6:55 am
Your story is not so rare. And not everyone was lucky enough to have an intelligent rabbi who asks for a quick dip to be sure and that's it, instead of rejecting the whole family.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:08 am
Annulling is the incorrect term here. It implies there was a giyor and it was retracted. The ruling here was that there was no giyor as halachic criteria are not met. The major poshim (criminals) in my opinion are those who think it is at all ok to rely on heterim not 100% universally accepted in giyor or gitin because these 2 issues can destroy us.

In Hebrew I read an interesting article this subject by Rabbi Dovid Meir Drukman (don't know if related) who has led the public fight against the Machon HaGiyor since its inception. If it appears this week in English I will link it, it is quite long. He faced govt sanctions for his contradicting those above him on this matter.

There is a glaring logic error here. And that is that there is deliberate false testimony to the BD and the BD knows that it is a definite possibility but does not investigate. When Mary converted she thought she would or said a bareface lie. The BD suspected or believed she was sincere. Conversion to marry, though it should not be done, if it occurs and the ger truly decides to fulfill mitzvot would be a conversion. If she really has no intention and lies it is not. If the BD closes its eyes they are accomplices to a fraud of the potential convert and Am Israel. Is this about compassion or about forcing others to accept a lowering of standards to meet my criteria. Often this trick is done. Some liberal rabbis go for something way controversial and not accepted in normative psak today and try to force the world to accept their innovation by crying that one group is rejecting the legitimacy of an entire group. Rav Drukman is not the delegitimization of DL or MO, he is just an embarrassment to them. And I have heard him express some of his motives with his own mouth, not what I would call l'shem shamayim.

What I don't understand is any kind of Orthodox support for the secular govts desire to call Jewish the thousands of Russian non jews they have imported. And the lesson should be learned by rabbis that you don't go changing giyur without a consensus and prospective converts should know that the only conversion in the world that will be universally accepted is choosing the G-d of Israel and His commandments for Himself. And 10,000 LORs or liberal BD won't change that fact. You are the problem, not the poskim.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:31 am
Ruchel wrote:
Your story is not so rare. And not everyone was lucky enough to have an intelligent rabbi who asks for a quick dip to be sure and that's it, instead of rejecting the whole family.


Or a quick dip to prevent future heartbreak.

True story: A friend of a friend was getting married. Her mother had converted after she was born, but before her bat mitzva. Her father is Jewish. By the time her bat mitzva rolled around her mother had reverted to being a practising Xian, and they didn't keep anything in her home. A few years later she became frum of her own accord.

I offered to make her sheva brochos. Then she told me her story, so off my dh ran to our rav (it involved us because of the 7 brochos). Our rav said she is not Jewish because at the time of her bat mitzva she was not keeping mitzvos (funnily enough, her mother is Jewish.) But no problem, our rav said, she is frum, so no problem at all for her to convert before she gets married - kabbalas ol mitzvos is there, so when she goes to the mikva she should also go for geirus with a BD. So I pluck up courage and call her up and tell her all this. Oh, she says, I asked Rav___ (left-wing MO rav) and he said I'm Jewish. Me: well it won't do any harm to just be sure. She: Rav ____ says I'm Jewish.

So that was the end of that. I had to find an excuse not to make her 7 brochos. And she married a frum guy and they already have children.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:43 am
Wait, was she converted, or not? Since the mother converted after her birth, it has no impact on her!
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:57 am
Ruchel wrote:
Wait, was she converted, or not? Since the mother converted after her birth, it has no impact on her!


Whoops, you're right, I forgot that part. She was converted at the same time as her mother, but before her bat mitzva.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 7:58 am
She was converted, but didn't get confirmed at her BM?
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mama-star




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 8:01 am
I agree with ora_43 when she said:
Quote:
Finally, contrary to popular opinion (or at least the opinion popular among those at the Hartman institute and others who call for "pluralistic" conversion in Israel), rabbis are really not that quick to break up families and invalidate decades of judgements, conversions, and weddings. I believe that if there were a case like this, the rabbis involved would do everything possible to NOT invalidate Miriam's conversion.


Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 8:08 am
This is so scary for the converts out there! It's among my nightmares as a convert. And we wonder why converts worry about shidduchim or acceptance in the frum world, or feel like second class citizens sometimes!

Just knowing that there's always a possibility is frustrating and scary. (And yes, I know that the probability is small, but it's still there. That's the point--it might not be good enough at some point in the future.)
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 8:09 am
Ruchel wrote:
She was converted, but didn't get confirmed at her BM?


Right, her family were keeping nothing when she was BM. She became frum as an older teenager.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 8:14 am
Even among the lightest (Orthodox) conversions I heard of, the convert had to keep shabbes, kashrus (and the lightest conversions may encounter many problems in stricter communities, but that's obvious).... and children who were converted had to be raised that way too. So I understand the problem here.

I personally know a few converted children who were raised more traditional than shomer mitzvos, but they learned since they went to jewish school, which may be why no one questioned the fact?
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 8:17 am
My ex converted halachically after our legal and J4J (Jews for J) chuppa after we left it. The J4J accepted the "prophetess" who testified that his family was Jewish. We did major research looking for evidence and found none so he had to undergo giyur. He was asked pointed and direct questions about J and what he thought of him, how he would relate to his extremely evangelistic Mom and so on. I was also questioned thoroughly. Not to prove Jewishness but rather to see that we actively denied in front of the BD him and his teachings. When we divorced he waited for the BD and stayed Jewish and observant. He looked for a yiras shamayim wife the 2nd time. There is your proof. If the organization you mention is really frum then they have to be making sure the non Jewish spouse is taking on mitzvot because of themselves. Otherwise the Jew remains intermarried. If couples care so little to marry out in the first place they can stay in that condition. A desire to convert after the fact is a sign that something has changed and it has to be investigated.
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cdawnr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 8:45 am
On the Eternal Family Foundation...

I know numerous people hwo have been involved in this program and it has often been the non-Jewish partner who has pulled foward the Jewish partner. Those that I know were truly and incredibly sincere in what they were doing.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 12 2008, 10:23 am
HindaRochel wrote:
But his arguement is the ritual surpasses the intent, that regardless of her intent the conversion is valid.

Edited to include the relevant sentence:
Quote:
The sources on giyyur cited below reveal the same ritual logic: Once giyyur has been performed, the motivation that led the Gentile to undergo that process is irrelevant.


IIRC, that is the shita of R. Moshe and many disagree.
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