For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

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Is it worth going from middle class to poor

yes

19%

[ 33 ]

80%

[ 139 ]

Total Votes : 172

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:43 am

ETA I started to list the "positives" of being poor on page 4

I am starting a spinoff because on the other thread people were saying how the poor are getting richer and middle class is suffering etc...

Now I decided to point out what things being poor makes us lose out on and you tell me if middles class is the same (or even worse) and it would be clear if its really worth it. I would appreciate if first the poor class would comment on this first so the list be more complete but obviously it's not necessary.

When being poor there is literally no way you can get a good therapist who deals with trauma and severe cases as they do not accept Medicaid. (I have seen many who accept the non Medicaid insurances) So if you went through something extreme in life you have to either take loans to pay for it or live with it (I don't know about middle class but let me know)

You can barely go on vacation , get a trip to eretz yisroel , cancan or most of those high class hotels that people post about or are in the magazines (unless you get a signup bonus credit card which anyone can get)

I haven't seen a poor family with medicaid (who deserves medicaid and isnt making money under the table) buy a house or get a mortgage

your status in communities are usually lower when you are poor. You get less shidduchim for your child (see the other thread) aren't really recognized and chances are you will never be honored for anything in your life (even for the yeshiva dinner parents of the year award which is not important)

If there is something you really need badly and cant afford it there is no I will work more or work harder this week month etc.. becuase if you do you will lose all yor benefits.. you will always have to go to gemachs if that item or service is available or chv live without it

there is almost no room or potential to get promoted to a higher job / position/ wealth ...

you always rent and never know if you will get kicked out , will need to move , or if rent will go up

its extremely hard to save money for emergencies chv..

you are always in worry about how you will make your next simcha and will need to call this gemacch and that one and get references etc.. and work much harder and it doesn't always feel good

certain dental speialists are not covered forget about those dental costs (this is a message to be carefull about your teeth) such as endodontists, periodontists, crowns caps , and harder procedures..
to get a provider that accepts you have to go to a hospital and usually its the med students that see you who may not be that professional. To pay for a crown sometimes is over a thousand dollars (and there have been numerous threads here where people couldnt afford it)

Now this is the perspective of being poor , maybe if I get a chance I ll post the benefits as well. Those who complain about middle class you can post the challenges of being middle class and it can be an open (peacefull) discussion as honestly I have never been in your shoes so I don't know what perspective you are coming from. If anyone wants to add onto the list please feel free..

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:45 am

Also I wan to add that all the above was for those who are making on the books and cant really afford xyz..

If someone is off the books and is making tons and on mediaid and classifying themselves as poor that is a different discussion on its own

amother

Slateblue

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:47 am

Thank you.
I wanted to post something similar after reading those responses.
I want to ask, do any of the suffering middle class ever go on vacation, have expensive jewelry, furntiture, etc..?
Our furniture is random second hand stuff. No vacations, tiny living space, one old noisy car, etc..

amother

NeonPurple

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:50 am

I have no problem with giving help to the poor who do their best to work. I have a problem with giving to people who can work but choose not to. Or people who work and scam the system and still get all the benefits. If that's not you I'm happy you are getting the help you need.

amother

Jade

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:51 am

Yes!!!!!

We’re stuck in a position where we can’t lose our Medicaid coverage. People truly do not understand how hard this is.

amother

Darkblue

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:53 am

this makes me feel better about paying about 35% of my income in taxes!

It makes me sad when people can't work more because of losing benefits. Everyone loses out.

We need a universal basic income.

amother

Vanilla

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:54 am

I don’t think anyone is jealous of anyone there. It’s just pointing out how ridiculous the system is and how much it fails an economy.

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:54 am

amother NeonPurple wrote:

Thanks. What about those who work but nebach because of different circumstances in life were only able to get a job that makes 15-20 dollars an hour and decided to work till the medicaid lmit for they realized that if they work more they will lose everything and will end up with much less.. so they decided to be a sahm part time to at least help out with th familiy and save monet that way (babysiting etc..)

amother

Brunette

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:56 am

The problem is the poor/middle class.
We have 5 kids, make 100k. (My husband works ft+commute for 65k, I work 9-3 for 35k).
We are eligible only for Medicaid (jerseyCare) for our kids for a price. Not us.
We get minimal tuition breaks. We pay thousands of dollars a year for not good, emergency insurance.
Good therapists don't take our insurances. So when something bad happens, we need to pay a $50 copay for mediocre therapists, and that's AFTER meeting our $8000 a year deductible.
We don't get food stamps or WIC or anything.
Vacation? There is no money. Forget Cancun. Our date nights are splitting a soda and going for a walk.
We don't own a house. We don't have the down payment nor do we have family who will gift us that money.
And we pay taxes. A lot of it. And when April 15 rolls around, we celebrate the years that we don't have to pay more than what was already deducted.
We don't get a 5k or 10k "deduction" for EIC or what's because we make too much.

It's the poor middle class. Make too much for benefits, make too little to be ok.

Trademark

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:56 am

This is not about jealousy. The discussion was that the way these programs are designed to disincentive people from trying to earn more. It's not a judgement about poor people, but about the government.

These programs should be on a sliding scale, so you don't lose out by earning more.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 11:59 am

amother OP wrote:

When being poor there is literally no way you can get a good therapist who deals with trauma and severe cases as they do not accept Medicaid. (I have seen many who accept the non Medicaid insurances) So if you went through something extreme in life you have to either take loans to pay for it or live with it (I don't know about middle class but let me know)

Nit just that kind of therapy. Aba, ot, pt you also can’t get decent providers. Dc needs aba and I need to pay for private insurance out of pocket. Fun fact, if you qualify for Medicaid then you can’t buy insurance on marketplace. It’s full price. Oh and I have my own medical issues that need decent doctors and none of them take Medicaid either. I can’t afford to pay for private insurance for myself as well so I end up paying out of pocket which means I push off appointments for as much as I can and hope everything is ok.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:02 pm

Trademark wrote:

Medicaid, food stamps, hud, they are all on a sliding scale. Medicaid if you start earning more the adults will lose benefits, but the kids can stay on with a copay (unless you hit the higher limit but that limit is significantly higher than the adult Medicaid limit). Food stamps, they take your income into account when they decide how much to give per month and it will be significantly lower if you earn more. Hud, you need to pay a % of your income every month toward rent. These are all sliding scales.

amother

Sunflower

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:04 pm

amother Slateblue wrote:

No, suffering middle class people do not buy expensive jewelry, go on more than the most basic vacations (like a road trip for 2 or 3 days where everyone crams into a room), have fancy furniture etc. Also an old car. No big living spaces or homes, lots of kids sharing a bedroom etc
I think frum life has given many skewed perspective of what is middle class vs well to do. The things you are describing are what well to do people do, not middle class.

amother

PlumPink

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:05 pm

As someone who is poor, most of the issues on your list are not even anywhere near my list. This is my list of issues due to being poor:
1. Constant crushing stress about how I will be able to buy food, pay tuition, pay the bills. Will the electricity be shut next week, will my kids be allowed back in school next year, will my credit card be declined so that I can't even buy potatoes and beans for supper?
2. My dd needs braces but medicaid won't cover it. But she really needs braces desperately. What can I do?
3. Ultimate shame at asking relatives or the local tzedakah organizations for handouts.
4. I can find clothing for my little kids at the local gemachs, but my teens would be mortified. But they desperately need new clothing. What do I do now?
5. My niece who I am close to finally got engaged! But they're asking $15 to chip in for the gift. How can I chip in? How can I not?

I can go on. But I think you get the picture. Cancun isn't even on the wish list. Vacation means a hike in a nearby park. And if it's a good month I'll buy a special treat.

amother

Poppy

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:06 pm

If you make too much for benefits so you have to pay for insurance and don't get food stamps and pay a lot in taxes, on paper you're middle class but your take home amount at the end of the month could be the same as someone 'poor.' So no, you don't either go on vacation or get luxuries.

Sliding scale is what it really should be.

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:07 pm

amother Ivory wrote:

I wouldn't fully agree with that. I havent really used OT for PT medicaid has given decent providers who accept. I got a letter in the mail that ABA is covered an I assume that ot is as well but I ll take your word for it as I beleive you for what you say. I live in NY

amother

Molasses

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am starting a spinoff because on the other thread people were saying how the poor are getting richer and middle class is suffering etc...

Now I decided to point out what things being poor makes us lose out on and you tell me if middles class is the same (or even worse) and it would be clear if its really worth it. I would appreciate if first the poor class would comment on this first so the list be more complete but obviously it's not necessary.

When being poor there is literally no way you can get a good therapist who deals with trauma and severe cases as they do not accept Medicaid. (I have seen many who accept the non Medicaid insurances) So if you went through something extreme in life you have to either take loans to pay for it or live with it (I don't know about middle class but let me know)

You can barely go on vacation , get a trip to eretz yisroel , cancan or most of those high class hotels that people post about or are in the magazines (unless you get a signup bonus credit card which anyone can get)

I haven't seen a poor family with medicaid (who deserves medicaid and isnt making money under the table) buy a house or get a mortgage

your status in communities are usually lower when you are poor. You get less shidduchim for your child (see the other thread) aren't really recognized and chances are you will never be honored for anything in your life (even for the yeshiva dinner parents of the year award which is not important)

If there is something you really need badly and cant afford it there is no I will work more or work harder this week month etc.. becuase if you do you will lose all yor benefits.. you will always have to go to gemachs if that item or service is available or chv live without it

there is almost no room or potential to get promoted to a higher job / position/ wealth ...

you always rent and never know if you will get kicked out , will need to move , or if rent will go up

its extremely hard to save money for emergencies chv..

you are always in worry about how you will make your next simcha and will need to call this gemacch and that one and get references etc.. and work much harder and it doesn't always feel good

Now this is the perspective of being poor , maybe if I get a chance I ll post the benefits as well. Those who complain about middle class you can post the challenges of being middle class and it can be an open (peacefull) discussion as honestly I have never been in your shoes so I don't know what perspective you are coming from. If anyone wants to add onto the list please feel free..

Oh wow I think your definition of middle class and mine are not the same.

I think we're middle class, with an income - in the past few years- of between 120 and 150k.

We have exactly the same list. Not every therapist takes out insurance- if anything they'll take medicaid or you can be eligible for sliding fee scale- not us. We cant afford braces and we've been pushing this off.... DC needs braces very badly.

Vacation? Savings? Not even on the radar.

And most people I know who are on programs do own a house.

The only difference that I can see is that we both work really hard, while my friend who are on programs don't work as hard at all. Sometimes I think we are just dupes.

amother

Brass

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:13 pm

We bought a house from when my husband first got his degree and we had 1 child. Now with a large family kah and there isn’t much room for growth that same salary is considered “poor”.

We don’t go on vacations (married over 2 decade), have missed our siblings weddings because flights are beyond our budget.

As a chabad women who only wears a shaitel outdoors I was wearing one with a torn net and missing a lot of hair because I couldn’t afford a new one. A Gemach gave me one that didn’t fit properly, wasn’t my color and the cut was not suited but it was better then nothing. My dh took his cc points and our taxes one year to finally get me to buy a cheap one. There went part of our camp payments but after a few years there was no choice.

amother

Seablue

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:15 pm

amother OP wrote:

Struggling upper middle class here.
- using the same therapists you are but paying copays and deductibles. Medicaid HMOs actually cover more than my "excellent" private insurance. We have to use clinics like ohel, Jewish board
- no vacations here. We can't even do a night at Kalahari or one of the nearby "vacations." Last time we could afford that was 6 years ago.
- we each need to work side jobs just to ensure enough money for food, meanwhile people are offering to sell us their food stamps and my kids want to know why we never have all the snacks the other kids have and need to always bring homemade stuff
- we make very decently on the books before taxes so schools charge us more tuition than we can afford, even with breaks
- so we get cut off notices for our utilities every month or two because that's at the bottom of our priority list in terms of expenses.
- worked hard my whole life and am pretty young still but am becoming more and more unable to get through each day without a breakdown. But stopping isn't an option.
-bh the big difference is we can save for emergencies. But we just had a bunch in a row and they drained everything and we're now severely in debt. I may make more but it's all going to loan and credit card payments due to our emergencies, which are still ongoing and have no way of continuing to pay for
- we have always used gemachs for anything there is a gemach available
- honors and awards? Middle class don't get that. Only wealthy donors.
- ok I own a home, sort of. The bank does. I'm terrified of the day I can't make my mortgage payment. I've come very close and after taxes were reassessed my payment went up $300/month without warning.

I'm not saying this is worse than being poor. I'm just sharing this so you don't have any illusions about middle class.

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2023, 12:16 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Thank you for posting. I am really wondering how those on programs own a house. (unless they live oot or began without programs or making money off the books)

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