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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
Dh annoyed by DS and hat wearing
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amother
Chestnut


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:07 pm
amother OP wrote:
We haven't said anything to DS and hopefully this was just for DS to feel less like he stands out... but wearing a hat is a minhag and it is not our minhag. Are we allowed to eat start waiting 3 hours if minhag is 6? rice on pesach if its not our minhag? Minhagim are not meant to be changed... that's my issue.


This sounds like you’re terrified he’ll be more frum than you approve of.
Wearing a hat “isnt your minhag?” Do you not realize how you sound? You sound like you’re ashamed of him daring to want to wear a hat! What’s the problem with it?
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erm




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:07 pm
amother OP wrote:
I have to disagree- wearing a black hat just means you want to look "frummer"- that doesn't show growing in yiddishkeit- growing in yiddishkeit to me you are learning more, helping others, tzedaka chessed- the garb is not yiddishekti and that is where I get concerned... One of my rebbeim used to say the greatest navi of all time - Moshe rabbeinu did not wear a black hat.

Does your husband dress like moshe rabbeinu? He probably didn't wear a kippa either. Who knows what kind of head coverings they had in those days. Not sure what the big deal is about wearing a black hat. 80 years ago all men wore hats in America. It is the yeshiva crowd that kept wearing it.
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amother
Chestnut


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:09 pm
amother OP wrote:
I have to disagree- wearing a black hat just means you want to look "frummer"- that doesn't show growing in yiddishkeit- growing in yiddishkeit to me you are learning more, helping others, tzedaka chessed- the garb is not yiddishekti and that is where I get concerned... One of my rebbeim used to say the greatest navi of all time - Moshe rabbeinu did not wear a black hat.


You sound like you really have an issue of hating the idea of a hat, and it’s not because it’s “not your minhag.”
Why don’t you look into what really bugs you about it. Are you ashamed of your friends or family seeing him with a hat?
And your examples of other minhagim compared to this issue with a hat is like comparing apples and oranges
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:10 pm
amother OP wrote:
We haven't said anything to DS and hopefully this was just for DS to feel less like he stands out... but wearing a hat is a minhag and it is not our minhag. Are we allowed to eat start waiting 3 hours if minhag is 6? rice on pesach if its not our minhag? Minhagim are not meant to be changed... that's my issue.


Yes, headcovering is dictated by minhag.

What did your son take off to put on a hat?

From your post it sounds like you wear nothing over the yarmulkah. If that's the case that's not minhag.....


(Either way, at mid 20s he's old enough to do his own thing and experiment).
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amother
Watermelon


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:16 pm
For the record a hat is worn because there are many sources that a double head covering is preferable for davening. It's not about looking frummer. But I think that comment is the most telling of what the actual feelings are here. You feel your son is frumming out and you don't like it. Even if you haven't said anything to him, he will pick up on it and you risk losing your relationship.

Also the comment that moshe rabeinu didn't wear a hat, he didn't wear today's yarmulka or kippa sruga either. So that just sounds like a weak silly argument. We don't wear any clothing today that remotely resembles what moshe wore. He wore clothing of that time period and we wear clothing of this time period.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:18 pm
It's really really sad that your DS in his 20s is so afraid of you and DHs reaction that he wouldn't mention that he wore a hat on shabbos.

I'm sorry, but shame on both of you.

You would think he is doing drugs.

Please take a strong look at yourselves to see what is really bothering you and learn to love your DS and his choices, no matter if he chooses to wear a hat or not, or any other minhagim he chooses to take on.
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amother
Chestnut


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 10:23 pm
AlwaysGrateful wrote:
For those of you acting like the OP is being ridiculous...Would you feel the same way if your son, who generally wears a black hat/ black yarmulke/whatever would go to an MO shul and wear a kipa sruga in order to "fit in"? Or would you feel concerned at all?


Your comparison is ridiculous and not at all relevant.
Going from more frum to more modern dream is a whole lot more problematic than the other way around
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 11:05 pm
amother Chestnut wrote:
Your comparison is ridiculous and not at all relevant.
Going from more frum to more modern dream is a whole lot more problematic than the other way around

A Kippa sruga is not less frum than a black hat…..just saying.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 11:07 pm
What your dh is afraid of is that ds is at risk of or is already starting to flip out religiously. That he'll quit his job or drop out of college to go to yeshiva, look to this rav for advice and guidance instead of to his own father, marry a girl from an ultra-right-wing family with whom the two of you will never feel at ease, refuse to eat in your house because it's not kosher enough, spend every YT at his inlaws and not with you, take on his wife's family's minhagim and reject yours, and give you grandchildren who will think you're not Jewish because you and your dh wear colored clothing.

All of this may or may not happen; it may or may not be already happening. OTOH, your ds may just be a person who doesn't like to stand out. He may be fully aware that in this rav's circles, people will look at him differently and relate to him differently if he's wearing a hat. He knows or suspects that he will not be accorded much respect if he's wearing just a kippah. People can deny it till they're blue in the face but IT IS SO. How do I know? Because when we visit Yeshivishland, dh is treated very differently when he borrows one of our ds hats than when he wears just a kippah. He's also treated differently when he wears a black kippah than when he wears a colored one (which, as you can imagine, barely counts as a headcovering over there).

So your ds is going for protective coloration. It doesn't mean that he's necessarily going over to the Dark Side, though he obviously has some interest in it.

Your dh should relax. Better your ds should be unable to eat in your house than that you should be unable to eat in his.
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amother
Oatmeal


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 11:09 pm
amother Aster wrote:
It's not atypical for boys to find their own derech in yiddishkeit. And your son is in his twenties... he's an adult. Really, it's none of DH's business. This is very minor. He's not smoking pot or being mechallel shabbos. He's dressing more yeshivish, making decisions how he wants to serve Hashem, as he should. Live and let live.


There are some parents who would do anything for this nisayon! Count your blessings! If DS is happy and shteiging then COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS!!!!!!! There are thousands of boys who are struggling with mental illness, yiddishjkeit struggles and thousands of parents who would love your 'nisayon'. Ask any rosh yeshiva - they'll bless your son!

And to be clear a hat is not a minhag. I know it's been said before but it bears repeating - a headcovering is halacha although really according to shulchan oruch only for davening and brochos and learning - so your DH is already overdoing the halacha. A black hat is definitely not a thing - it became the frum look but a head covering or double head covering can be anything from a bowler hat. top hat, cap, peak cap, hood, yarmulka, kippa, cappel. (Moshe Rabbeinu and the avos may have worn a hood-the pictures show that lol - perhaps that's where hoodies are coming in - we're making our way towards moshiach lol)

Most importantly - Don't confuse culture with minhag/yiddishkeit. Speak to your LOR with your husband - you'll be so relieved you did!

Though before all smart reasoning dictates - have you even had a gentle chat with your husband asking him why he doesn't like it? Let him explain - he may be coming from some valid place. Then you can go with those claims to your LOR and get clarity
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amother
Geranium


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 11:15 pm
Ema of 5 wrote:
A Kippa sruga is not less frum than a black hat…..just saying.


No but 1 cover is less than 2 coverings, which is a valid option kept by many.

My answer would be that I'd fully understand ds for not wanting to stand out while being concerned as to why that is the case ( I try to teach my kids that it's ok to be different. We live in a very mixed hashkafa neighborhood)
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 11:19 pm
amother Geranium wrote:
No but 1 cover is less than 2 coverings, which is a valid option kept by many.

My answer would be that I'd fully understand ds for not wanting to stand out while being concerned as to why that is the case ( I try to teach my kids that it's ok to be different. We live in a very mixed hashkafa neighborhood)

I wasn’t responding to that, I responded SPECIFICALLY to someone who said “going from more frum to more modern” and just wanted to point out that that is incorrect. A black hat is specific to the yeshivish crowd. Wearing it doesn’t make them, or make them look more frum that those who don’t.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 11:39 pm
Not knowing anything about OP's ds, I wouldn't care to guess what's going on with him. Maybe he is secretly planning to go "black" and going to this rav for Shabbat is the first step in letting his parents get gradually used to the idea. But it could just as easily be as a PP said, he's simply showing respect for a community that he's visiting and trying not to stick out. Assuming "protective coloration" when visiting a different community has nothing to do with one's personal convictions and does not reflect embarrassment about one's own beliefs. Even nonJewish politicians put on a yarmulka when attending a function at a synagogue or hosted by an Orthodox organization. Nobody's worrying that they're going to join the Chosen People.

When a child goes in a direction different from the one you intended, it feels like a slap in the face. Whether it's not becoming a ________ like his father, grandfather and uncles, or choosing a stream of Yiddishkeit different from your own, understand that your son is not rejecting YOU. He's merely choosing his own way of life. You had your chance to choose yours, now it's his turn to choose his.

OP, my advice to you is: accept it. Either your son will go "black" or he won't. If you fight him on this, you will just drive him that much faster into the waiting arms of the charedi velt, and you may very well lose him entirely. You don't have to actively encourage him, but don't give him a hard time about it. He'll do what he wants to do, either way, but if you're accepting, you will stay on good terms with him. Fight him on this, and you will create a rift in your family that you may not be able to heal.
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amother
Oatmeal


 

Post Sat, Jan 21 2023, 11:48 pm
Actually - the fact that DS is choosing his own way (if he is) is probably KUDOS to your and DH's parenting - you've allowed him to develop into the real him - you've done chanoch lenaar al pi darko to a T! Well well well done!

Isn't that a cool way to look at it???? Love!
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amother
Camellia


 

Post Sun, Jan 22 2023, 12:00 am
When your child puts on the uniform of a different team, it's a rejection of what he grew up with.

Obviously, a black hat has no halachic status. It's a uniform that says he identifies with a certain community. It's not frummer than not wearing a hat. It's different

Having a child who is religiously different from you can feel like a rejection. Now, this path may suit this young man better than the one he grew up with, in which case he should pursue it. But don't invalidate the feelings of a religious father whose value system is being rejected here.
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essie14




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 22 2023, 12:00 am
This "child" is an adult. You and your DH need to accept that your children are not cookie cutter copies of yourselves. You've raised him well and now he wants to forge his own path, which is healthy and normal.
He is making his own choices which is exactly what a young man in his twenties should be doing.
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amother
Oatmeal


 

Post Sun, Jan 22 2023, 12:08 am
amother Camellia wrote:
When your child puts on the uniform of a different team, it's a rejection of what he grew up with.

Obviously, a black hat has no halachic status. It's a uniform that says he identifies with a certain community. It's not frummer than not wearing a hat. It's different

Having a child who is religiously different from you can feel like a rejection. Now, this path may suit this young man better than the one he grew up with, in which case he should pursue it. But don't invalidate the feelings of a religious father whose value system is being rejected here.


That is so stifling! I hear the feelings of DH of course but it does bring to mind the era of where children had to become what their parents said - eg become a doctor or other career as the father planned rather than what suited the child best eg musician or plumber gasp ch'v! Really now, we're trying to move on and progress from then! What's the difference? This isn't about religion at all - this is about the father's feelings! We don't sacrifice our growth in yiddishkeit for our parents whatever the new path looks like!

And why do we measure our success according to our children's choices rather than our own? Sorry backwards 1960s-1980s
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amother
Camellia


 

Post Sun, Jan 22 2023, 12:34 am
amother Oatmeal wrote:
That is so stifling! I hear the feelings of DH of course but it does bring to mind the era of where children had to become what their parents said - eg become a doctor or other career as the father planned rather than what suited the child best eg musician or plumber gasp ch'v! Really now, we're trying to move on and progress from then! What's the difference? This isn't about religion at all - this is about the father's feelings! We don't sacrifice our growth in yiddishkeit for our parents whatever the new path looks like!

And why do we measure our success according to our children's choices rather than our own? Sorry backwards 1960s-1980s


I was pretty clear that the son should choose his own derech. Unlike some other posters, I was validating the father's feelings about having his own derech rejected. Religious life isn't a career choice. It's deeper and far more meaningful. As it should be.

I know someone who grew up Satmar but became a religious Zionist and moved from
Brooklyn to a yishuv in Israel. He calls himself a chozer be-tshuva. I imagine that his former neighbors in Williamsburg would not have such positive things to say.
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Sun, Jan 22 2023, 10:17 am
amother Camellia wrote:
I was pretty clear that the son should choose his own derech. Unlike some other posters, I was validating the father's feelings about having his own derech rejected. Religious life isn't a career choice. It's deeper and far more meaningful. As it should be.

I know someone who grew up Satmar but became a religious Zionist and moved from
Brooklyn to a yishuv in Israel. He calls himself a chozer be-tshuva. I imagine that his former neighbors in Williamsburg would not have such positive things to say.


Honestly the father doesn’t sound heartbroken or betrayed. He sounds sarcastic and superior, according to OP. He seems like he judges black hatters. That is not the same thing and I don’t think that kind of behavior needs validation
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amother
Feverfew


 

Post Sun, Jan 22 2023, 10:28 am
I grew up MO. My father screamed at me for my "holier than thou attitude" when I asked to go to a BY seminary.
In hindsight, I see that
1. He is generally insecure and is still searching for his own identity.
2. He got a lot of resistance from his parents when he became BT. He sees himself as the frum one in the family and the BY thing was a threat to that in his mind.

I wonder if any of this is similar in your family.
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