Dh annoyed by DS and hat wearing

amother

Oak

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 10:31 am

amother OP wrote:

We haven't said anything to DS and hopefully this was just for DS to feel less like he stands out... but wearing a hat is a minhag and it is not our minhag. Are we allowed to eat start waiting 3 hours if minhag is 6? rice on pesach if its not our minhag? Minhagim are not meant to be changed... that's my issue.

I don’t think it’s a minhag. And yes he can change his dress. Not sure what the big deal is. Seems he was trying to be respectful of the community he was visiting and the purple shirt is a good analogy.

amother

Snowflake

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 10:39 am

A black hat is not a minhag. It's a cultural norm. It's just something that became the accepted "uniform" for people who identify with a specific religious lifestyle, dating back <70 years approx.
Even <70 years ago, plenty of people associated with what are now "black hat yeshivas"/circles wore different colored and styles of hats, especially depending on the season. When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, there were yeshivish men who wore gray hats or straw hats etc. Now, these same (older) men only wear black hats. If it truly was a mining they'd have been exclusively wearing black hats all along.
Watch that now famous video of the Chafetz Chaim, it is fascinating for many reasons. Looking at the variety of headgear is one of them.

amother

Chambray

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 11:12 am

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

For those of you acting like the OP is being ridiculous...Would you feel the same way if your son, who generally wears a black hat/ black yarmulke/whatever would go to an MO shul and wear a kipa sruga in order to "fit in"? Or would you feel concerned at all?

Absolutely.

Dh took off his hat.

I don't even agree with it necessarily, but I don't think it's any of my business either.
I don't think it makes or breaks a person, I think the inside of a person is much more important.
I definitely don't think it's his parents place to be concerned either (and their not. They accept their children even if he's the only one this way)

Ema of 5

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 11:13 am

amother Snowflake wrote:

What video? Where can I watch it?

amother

Snowflake

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 11:36 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

What video? Where can I watch it?

It's on youtube. It was uncovered a few years ago and went viral. It's a couple of minutes and shows people escorting the Chofetz Chaim to a rabbinical conference in the 1920s.

Ema of 5

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 11:52 am

amother Snowflake wrote:

It's on youtube. It was uncovered a few years ago and went viral. It's a couple of minutes and shows people escorting the Chofetz Chaim to a rabbinical conference in the 1920s.

What do I put in to find it?
Edit: I found it, thank you

Reality

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 12:03 pm

amother OP wrote:

I have to disagree- wearing a black hat just means you want to look "frummer"- that doesn't show growing in yiddishkeit- growing in yiddishkeit to me you are learning more, helping others, tzedaka chessed- the garb is not yiddishekti and that is where I get concerned... One of my rebbeim used to say the greatest navi of all time - Moshe rabbeinu did not wear a black hat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure a man is supposed to wear a double head covering while davening. That is why married men wear their talis draped over their yamulke. Single men wear a hat over their yamulke.

Wearing a hat while davening is most certainly growing in Yiddishkeit.

amother

Watermelon

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 12:04 pm

Reality wrote:

You are right this is the reason for a hat

amother

Poppy

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 1:27 pm

Interesting discussion, op.
We are actually dealing with the opposite.
My husband is from a very right winged family and all the men wear black hats.
We are sad that our son decided to stop wearing his black hat. He is the only one in our shul who is over bar mitzvah and doesn’t wear a hat.
Now of course we know that the most important thing is that he’s a good person with yiras shamayim but unfortunately he doesn’t seem to have yiras shamayim now either and that’s very painful for us.
He no longer wants to daven and learn.
Recently we were with a few couples who are a drop more on the modern side than we are. 2 different couples were complaining about their sons who just want to be in Yeshiva and learn instead of starting college.
We would do ANYTHING to have our son learn in Yeshiva. (He is too young for college and he is just wasting his time now)
It’s a backwards world out there .
One family is complaining that their son is in Yeshiva.
Another family is heartbroken that their son is out of Yeshiva.
One family is distraught that their son started wearing a black hat while another family is devastated that their son stopped wearing his black hat.
Obviously the most important thing is that we have emotionally stable children who are happy, healthy and doing good things.
I hope Hashem sends your family peace of mind.

imaima

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 1:32 pm

amother OP wrote:

Do non jews who wear a black hat just want to look frummer? Whatever the reason, it’s not such a big deal

ChassidishMommy

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 2:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

True, he didn't, but he probably did wear an extensive headcloth, as men in that region did at the time and as many of them still do today. Would you rather your son wear that? Wink

We replaced the cloth head-covering with something a bit more to the styles of men's headgear in Western countries, while keeping to completely covering the head.
OT, but same goes for Chassidish men's garb. People on here sometimes think Chassidish men just got their style from 1800s Europe and for some reason didn't realize it went out of style. Wrong. Our ancestors in the Middle East in all likelihood covered themselves in long garments, as many still do to this day in that region. They just switched to frocks in Western countries, and stuck to covering up from shoulders to knees (for tznius reasons probably) even after men in Western society started exposing themselves more.

amother

Maize

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 2:14 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Going more to the left is a concern, going more to the right isn't!

amother

Canary

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 2:15 pm

Your son didn't start wearing a black hat, he borrowed one for one shabbos.
It's really not a big deal.

I know ladies who wear a mitpachat all the time, but when they go to a chareidi wedding, they will wear a sheitel because they feel uncomfortable standing out.

I know a boy in Israel who wears a black hat and velvet yarmulka in his yeshiva but a black kippah srugah when he is home for shabbos because that's what his parents and community wear.

I know a man in America, who wears a kipah srugah but his son went to a more right wing school and asked for a black hat for his bar mitzvah. The father said - if you wear a black hat, I should also wear one! So they both got hats. The father wears his black hat with his srugi!

Reality

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 2:26 pm

ChassidishMommy wrote:

True, he didn't, but he probably did wear an extensive headcloth, as men in that region did at the time and as many of them still do today. Would you rather your son wear that? Wink

That's an excellent point! The Yerushalmi's wear a gold bekeshe and it has nothing to do with 18th century Europe. Apparently, when the GRA's talmidim came to Israel, the Ottoman Turks discriminated against the Ashkenazi Jews. They started wearing the same clothes that the sefardi Jews and Arabs wore at that time to blend in. Now only the descendants of those talmidim continue to wear the golden bekeshes.

ChassidishMommy

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 2:31 pm

Reality wrote:

Fascinating, thanks!

zaq

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 3:15 pm

amother Camellia wrote:

But don't invalidate the feelings of a religious father whose value system is being rejected here.

Oh, please. It's hardly a rejection of his father's entire "value system." First of all, we don't know that son is going charedi. He's just going there for a Shabbat. He may decide it's not for him. But even if he does go all charedi, he's hardly rejecting his dad's entire value system. His dad is shomer Torah umitzvot, is he not? Son doesn't reject that. Son may want to be more extreme about it, but that hardly a rejection. If son decided to throw off ol mitzvot and become frei, THAT would be a rejection of dad's value system.

Last edited by zaq on Mon, Jan 23 2023, 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

Wolfsbane

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 3:35 pm

I think a lot of us on this thread are reading a lot into things (and I have participated in that). OP, taken on its own, a boy borrowing a hat for one Shabbos doesn't really mean anything at all. I hope we haven't caused you any distress.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 9:59 pm

amother OP wrote:

That is so interesting-
I am really appreciating this conversation and learning so much.
if we can so easily change minhagim what is the point of a minhag? Isn't the idea that we pass down our customs from generation to generation- that's what make so incredible of a people.

Minhag Yisroel Din Hu. Minhag Yisroel, Torah.
Yes, minhagim are extremely important.
but there are certain things that are more halachic minhagim (like how long to wait between milk and meat) and are more serious in nature, and things that are more "cultural"...(which I don't see as much of a big deal..)
But even with halachic minhagim, I think there is a place for people to, with Daas Torah and guidance, join a different community and take on different minhagim...my sister in law's brother in law became Chassidish and joined a certain community...now he follows all those minhagim and not his fathers...but it was done in a thought out way and with alot of guidance...

amother

Sun, Jan 22 2023, 10:01 pm

amother Poppy wrote:

Amen- the same for you!