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Ugh I feel so guilty- sleep training
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amother




Jade
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:09 pm
amother OP wrote:
No offense, but why do I feel like I just got lectured as if I am 10?
Banging head
I don't agree with a lot of your points.
My instincts were screaming to take the baby and run by the bris. Also by every vaccine I give. When doing tummy time (especially in the beginning when he would scream bloodcurling cries and I couldnt distract him).
Doing research is a reasonable and responsible thing to do. I hate it how you just tried to reduce me into someone who sounds stupid, just so you could sound so knowledgable.


I understand you're points. However, you did your research, you talked to your pediatrician, and you're still uncomfortable and questioning. This should tell you something. You still did not say why you insist on CIO and not on trying different methods. Especially if your baby went through birth trauma and is not a bad sleeper.
A bris is halacha.
Vaccines (if you choose to give) are for safety.
Tummy time is important for baby.
CIO is neither important, halacha, or for the babies safety.
Those that are pro CIO think it's the best thing and won't change their minds.
Those that are against CIO won't change their minds either.
You're still deciding. You're on the fence. So you should make a really educated decision and after you've tried other methods.
Such threads just cause more confusion to those that are undecided.
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amother




Plum
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:10 pm
amother Daffodil wrote:
Thank you but it was a mean way to say it - I don't want to contribute to the conflict on this thread. Other people have already said it in a nicer way.


Wow, I admire you. Impressive
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:13 pm
amother Jade wrote:
I understand you're points. However, you did your research, you talked to your pediatrician, and you're still uncomfortable and questioning. This should tell you something. You still did not say why you insist on CIO and not on trying different methods. Especially if your baby went through birth trauma and is not a bad sleeper.
A bris is halacha.
Vaccines (if you choose to give) are for safety.
Tummy time is important for baby.
CIO is neither important, halacha, or for the babies safety.

I actually booked an appointment with an acupuncturist who specializes in infants. We will see how that goes, I am hoping she could help. I am past that.
I was answering mushkamothers post, why I think researching and asking fellow mothers opinions is an okay thing to do. My pediatrician was very shocked that my off the charts 7 month baby was waking up 3 times after 12 to eat. He suggested ferber. And it made me feel uncomfortable so I did research and everything seemed okay. So, I decided to hear what other moms did with their babies.
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amother




Jade
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:16 pm
amother OP wrote:
I actually booked an appointment with an acupuncturist who specializes in infants. We will see how that goes, I am hoping she could help. I am past that.
I was answering mushkamothers post, why I think researching and asking fellow mothers opinions is an okay thing to do. My pediatrician was very shocked that my off the charts 7 month baby was waking up 3 times after 12 to eat. He suggested ferber.


But asking random strangers on the internet, isn't very productive. It's best to talk to people you know.
The pediatrician is probably shocked because he's been a pediatrician for the past 50 years and is still practicing methods from 50 years ago.

Good luck with the appointment. Hashem should help that it should help the baby.
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Michelle123




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:23 pm
amother Plum wrote:
Not quite. It’s okay to state your opinion. It’s another thing to judge other people’s parenting when it’s not bad but just different than yours. Again, no one has brought evidence that would suggest sleep training causes any harm. At this point, the conversation is purely emotional. It hurts you to hear a baby cry, hence why you are very against sleep training. That’s very nice, but there’s nothing wrong with a caring mother sleep training her baby in a humane way where the baby’s needs are being met. This is coming from someone who isn’t “into” sleep training. It doesn’t sit well with me for my own emotional feelings. Not for any logical reason.


Jade- you don't have a monopoly on what is true or right! CIO does not mean letting a baby cry for hours on end!! That's absurd. But, there are different ways of doing things. Some of which may not suit you, which is fine- but they may suit another and that does not make their choices selfish or lazy. This mom should speak with professionals and trust her gut instincts. And at the same time, know that there is much research indicating that risks to sleep training are minimal and much research suggesting that poor maternal mental health is harmful (and we know lack of sleep contributes to that). OP should speak with her doctors and her spouse, perhaps a rav and do what works for the whole family.
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mushkamothers




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:25 pm
amother OP wrote:
No offense, but why do I feel like I just got lectured as if I am 10?
Banging head
I don't agree with a lot of your points.
My instincts were screaming to take the baby and run by the bris. Also by every vaccine I give. When doing tummy time (especially in the beginning when he would scream bloodcurling cries and I couldnt distract him).
Doing research is a reasonable and responsible thing to do. I hate it how you just tried to reduce me into someone who sounds stupid, just so you could sound so knowledgable.


Wow okay neither my intention nor my point so I'm sorry if that's how it came across. And I wasn't trying to lecture at all just explain a broader position.

Like I said I didn't read every reply on this thread and there's a reason I try to stay off threads on this topic in the first place. There's really too much nuance and it's too hard to get it all across online. Like I have an entire highlight on my IG and all I'm doing there is backtracking and explaining myself all over again. It's an exhausting topic and it's polarizing because everyone wants to feel like a good mother so everyone will excuse and back up whatever they end up doing.

I'm all for research and I didn't say you shouldn't do it. If you researched (or believed in) the things like bris, shots, tummy time, doctor appointments etc then yes it would help you get through those hard times. But that's because we believe a bris is not an option. I did 3 btw and each time I thought to myself that I'm only letting this happen because it is a chok.

If something is not mandatory or we don't believe that it is, and your research is inconclusive, and your gut is saying something else, that's the part I was suggesting should be explored. Gabor Mate btw says that it is a trauma for the mother to turn off this instinct and willingly listen to her baby cry. But whatever if you don't agree or resonate with what I'm sharing then you don't have to listen to me.

Edit I actually invite you to, if you want to hear in full the perspective I am offering here, see the highlight which does have a lot of back and forth convos, linked resources and more explanations than I can type here or have patience to. It's @motheringmindset and I have nothing to sell you on this, not even a method of sleep training.


Last edited by mushkamothers on Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Jade
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:28 pm
Michelle123 wrote:
Jade- you don't have a monopoly on what is true or right! CIO does not mean letting a baby cry for hours on end!! That's absurd. But, there are different ways of doing things. Some of which may not suit you, which is fine- but they may suit another and that does not make their choices selfish or lazy. This mom should speak with professionals and trust her gut instincts. And at the same time, know that there is much research indicating that risks to sleep training are minimal and much research suggesting that poor maternal mental health is harmful (and we know lack of sleep contributes to that). OP should speak with her doctors and her spouse, perhaps a rav and do what works for the whole family.


I never claimed I did.
Did you read the entire thread? Or just joining the bandwagon to attack me?
Did you even read the OP? Because her gut instinct is making her feel very guilty about it. And you said that she should follow her gut instinct.
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amother




Plum
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:29 pm
amother Jade wrote:
I understand you're points. However, you did your research, you talked to your pediatrician, and you're still uncomfortable and questioning. This should tell you something. You still did not say why you insist on CIO and not on trying different methods. Especially if your baby went through birth trauma and is not a bad sleeper.
A bris is halacha.
Vaccines (if you choose to give) are for safety.
Tummy time is important for baby.
CIO is neither important, halacha, or for the babies safety.

Those that are pro CIO think it's the best thing and won't change their minds.
Those that are against CIO won't change their minds either.
You're still deciding. You're on the fence. So you should make a really educated decision and after you've tried other methods.
Such threads just cause more confusion to those that are undecided.


It seems like this discussion is exhausted and OP is doing her due diligence to give her baby the best BH.

Just wanted to point out that where it’s convenient for you to make excuses as to where it’s okay to raise cortisol levels or “hurt” baby it’s okay to do so.
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Michelle123




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:41 pm
amother Jade wrote:
I never claimed I did.
Did you read the entire thread? Or just joining the bandwagon to attack me?
Did you even read the OP? Because her gut instinct is making her feel very guilty about it. And you said that she should follow her gut instinct.


When you make an insinuation that someone's choice or potential choice (which is not reckless and has backing by many and not by others) is a lazy and selfish parenting choice you are not doing anyone any good. It may be the correct choice for her family- particularly if it is impacting her mental health. It may not be the correct choice. Most of the time we trust our gut and sometimes we need to make a different choice. All I am saying is that you can point out the pros and cons and you can still make your point effectively without the judgement.
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amother




Bergamot
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:57 pm
OP,
I commend you or reaching out to get information. There have been many good points mentions. Ultimately gd gave you the intuition to do whats best for your baby.
I want to add one point. The torah tells us to do to others what we want to be done to us.
When you are in a bad mood, irritable, sick or uncomfortable how do you want your loved ones to respond to you? Do you want to be ignored, left alone? Or would you want someone comfort you?
You are an adult who could take care of yourself yet eveyone wants to be comforted when they are in a bad mood or sick.

Your baby is a full fledged human being with physical and emotional needs. And a very vulnerable one. Your baby cannot take care of its own needs.
Babys are wired for survival. They will stop crying after a few days of being ignored because they need to survive. In order to survive they need to have connection with their parents. Babies and kids will give up their needs in order to connect to caregiver even those that are neglecting them or those that are neglecting part of their needs. Being connected is their only way to survive.

Giving your baby 2 years of healthy attachment (which means meeting their physical and emotion needs) is the biggest gift you could give another human being entrusted in your care.

How do I know this? I grew up in a seamingly beautiful safe family. Yet my emotional and physical needs weren't taken care of. I suffer tremendously because of it.

If you want research about these topics listen to Gabor Mate or read The Myth of Normal.
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amother




Jade
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 9:58 pm
amother Plum wrote:
It seems like this discussion is exhausted and OP is doing her due diligence to give her baby the best BH.

Just wanted to point out that where it’s convenient for you to make excuses as to where it’s okay to raise cortisol levels or “hurt” baby it’s okay to do so.

That post was directed to OP as an answer to a post of hers.
A bris being halacha is not a "convenient excuse." Hashem does not command us to do something that is a risk to the baby.
Vaccines is a choice that parents make for the safety of their baby. Parents that don't think it's safe, don't give Vaccines.
Tummy time is imperative for baby's development.
Leaving baby to CIO as the first resort, is non of the above.
I'm guessing that you're just trying to shut me up because you don't agree with or like my opinion. That's ok. My opinion won't change though.
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amother




Jade
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:00 pm
Michelle123 wrote:
When you make an insinuation that someone's choice or potential choice (which is not reckless and has backing by many and not by others) is a lazy and selfish parenting choice you are not doing anyone any good. It may be the correct choice for her family- particularly if it is impacting her mental health. It may not be the correct choice. Most of the time we trust our gut and sometimes we need to make a different choice. All I am saying is that you can point out the pros and cons and you can still make your point effectively without the judgement.


Again, did you read the entire thread? Did you read the OP? Did you read the post that the response about laziness was a direct response to?
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Sebastian




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:00 pm
Op baby wake up 3xs after 12 is NOT age appropriate at all. Poor you and poor baby.
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amother




Plum
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:04 pm
amother Jade wrote:
That post was directed to OP as an answer to a post of hers.
A bris being halacha is not a "convenient excuse." Hashem does not command us to do something that is a risk to the baby.
Vaccines is a choice that parents make for the safety of their baby. Parents that don't think it's safe, don't give Vaccines.
Tummy time is imperative for baby's development.
Leaving baby to CIO as the first resort, is non of the above.
I'm guessing that you're just trying to shut me up because you don't agree with or like my opinion. That's ok. My opinion won't change though.


It doesn’t interest me who your post was directed to. Im just pointing out an issue in your overall outlook. It makes your points less credible. I have no intention of “shutting anyone up” or changing anyone’s mind. Just interesting where your values become more flexible.
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:04 pm
Sebastian wrote:
Op baby wake up 3xs after 12 is NOT age appropriate at all. Poor you and poor baby.

Thank you! Not sure why people think its normal...
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amother




Sienna
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:06 pm
[quote="amother Bergamot"]OP,
I commend you or reaching out to get information. There have been many good points mentions. Ultimately gd gave you the intuition to do whats best for your baby.
I want to add one point. The torah tells us to do to others what we want to be done to us.
When you are in a bad mood, irritable, sick or uncomfortable how do you want your loved ones to respond to you? Do you want to be ignored, left alone? Or would you want someone comfort you?
You are an adult who could take care of yourself yet eveyone wants to be comforted when they are in a bad mood or sick.

Your baby is a full fledged human being with physical and emotional needs. And a very vulnerable one. Your baby cannot take care of its own needs.
Babys are wired for survival. They will stop crying after a few days of being ignored because they need to survive. In order to survive they need to have connection with their parents. Babies and kids will give up their needs in order to connect to caregiver even those that are neglecting them or those that are neglecting part of their needs. Being connected is their only way to survive.

Giving your baby 2 years of healthy attachment (which means meeting their physical and emotion needs) is the biggest gift you could give another human being entrusted in your care.

How do I know this? I grew up in a seamingly beautiful safe family. Yet my emotional and physical needs weren't taken care of. I suffer tremendously because of it.

If you want research about these topics listen to Gabor Mate or read The Myth of Normal.[/quote


OP- please take this with a grain of salt!! Yes- of course this is true. But, if you are otherwise meeting your child's needs, then the vast majority of scientific research does not indicate harm brought to a child from sleep training! My first child was a horrific sleeper and I was suffering tremendously due to the sleep deprivation- which in turn was impacting my marriage and my relationship with my child- not to mention my mental health. We spoke with doctors and ultimately a rav, who is known for his expertise in chinuch. The rav told us to buy the Ferber book! I was very opposed to sleep training at the time, but it was something we needed to do. And we all benefited from it. It isn't the right choice for everyone- but so many people sleep train their children and they turn out just fine! Your interactions with the child for the duration of his life have much more of an impact. I'm sorry the prior poster felt her needs weren't met- but by choosing to sleep train in a responsible way- if that is the correct decision for your family (and you are a loving and caring parent!)- does not mean your child will suffer tremendously for it!
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amother




Jade
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:07 pm
amother Plum wrote:
It doesn’t interest me who your post was directed to. Im just pointing out an issue in your overall outlook. It makes your points less credible. I have no intention of “shutting anyone up” or changing anyone’s mind. Just interesting where your values become more flexible.


This has nothing to do with values.
Is CIO halacha?
Is CIO for the babies safety?
Is CIO imperative for babies development?
CIO is none of the above and is not a comparison to a bris, vaccines, or tummy time. It doesn't fall in to either category.
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amother




Plum
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:10 pm
amother Jade wrote:
This has nothing to do with values.
Is CIO halacha?
Is CIO for the babies safety?
Is CIO imperative for babies development?
CIO is Not a comparison to a bris, vaccines, or tummy time. It doesn't fall in to either category.


You’re misunderstanding me. I’m saying is that where it’s convenient for you to be okay with a baby in pain or discomfort (bris, tummy time etc) it’s okay, but when convenient for someone else (sleep training) it’s not okay. It’s just hypocritical, that’s all.

Some would argue that sleep training helped their children sleep better long term. Would that not qualify as a benefit?
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amother




Jade
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:15 pm
amother Plum wrote:
You’re misunderstanding me. I’m saying is that where it’s convenient for you to be okay with a baby in pain or discomfort (bris, tummy time etc) it’s okay, but when convenient for someone else (sleep training) it’s not okay. It’s just hypocritical, that’s all.


It's not hypocritical. It's never convenient for me to be okay with a baby in pain or discomfort.
But we sometimes must do it because of halacha, babies safety, and babies development. We have no other choice or methods. I cry at every bris. I cried along with my baby at her therapy sessions. I was a wreck when my baby went through surgeries and hospitalization. But those weren't my choice and were must.
CIO is choosing pain and discomfort for a baby when it's not a must and there are other more gentle options.
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amother




Ebony
 

Post Tue, Jan 24 2023, 10:17 pm
amother Bergamot wrote:
OP,
I commend you or reaching out to get information. There have been many good points mentions. Ultimately gd gave you the intuition to do whats best for your baby.
I want to add one point. The torah tells us to do to others what we want to be done to us.
When you are in a bad mood, irritable, sick or uncomfortable how do you want your loved ones to respond to you? Do you want to be ignored, left alone? Or would you want someone comfort you?
You are an adult who could take care of yourself yet eveyone wants to be comforted when they are in a bad mood or sick.

Your baby is a full fledged human being with physical and emotional needs. And a very vulnerable one. Your baby cannot take care of its own needs.
Babys are wired for survival. They will stop crying after a few days of being ignored because they need to survive. In order to survive they need to have connection with their parents. Babies and kids will give up their needs in order to connect to caregiver even those that are neglecting them or those that are neglecting part of their needs. Being connected is their only way to survive.

Giving your baby 2 years of healthy attachment (which means meeting their physical and emotion needs) is the biggest gift you could give another human being entrusted in your care.

How do I know this? I grew up in a seamingly beautiful safe family. Yet my emotional and physical needs weren't taken care of. I suffer tremendously because of it.

If you want research about these topics listen to Gabor Mate or read The Myth of Normal.

Love this! If only all mothers treated their babies the way they would wish to be treated…
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