Finance shaming VS Flaunting

amother

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:46 am

Finance shaming is wrong.
But you flaunting and rubbing your wealth into my face isn't the right either. It's the total opposite of tznious.
You won't take your diamond rings to your grave or to the world to come.
But you will be accountable for the pain you have inflicted on your fellow Jew.
There. I said it.

Lizzie4

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:58 am

What happened?

Give us some context

amother

Watermelon

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 4:32 am

A while back, as part of my work, I met with a group of (nonreligious) donors, all of whom had given eight figures to a particular foundation. Every single one of them dressed modestly. No flashy jewelery, no brand names, just low-key casual clothing. The women wore their hair short or pulled back, not cascading in waves down their backs. There's a lot to be learned from that kind of behavior.

It's important to find peers who understand modesty. There's nothing wrong with enjoying this world, but drawing attention to your wealth is in poor taste.

sequoia

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 4:54 am

amother Watermelon wrote:

Flaunting your wealth by wearing flashy jewelry and expensive clothes and sheitels in everyday life (like to the grocery store) is exclusively a frum thing. Look at how Mark Zuckerberg and his wife dress.

In the 19th c. it was definitely a thing to display your wealth through clothes, and since frum society is still culturally in many ways in the Victorian Era…

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 5:03 am

I think theres a difference between new and old wealth.
My family has old wealth but I never dressed in brand name. If I did, it wasn't obvious (and I would get great deals, can’t imagine spending a lot of money!) We shopped at Walmart as well.

The new wealth feels like they can drive nicest cars, wear most expensive wigs and have every designer label on their clothing. There’s a concept of being tzanua with your wealth. (Yes it’s ok to have some expensive items but there’s a classy way to wear them)

amother

Acacia

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 5:40 am

So there’s a few issues here

1. The Frum communities don’t live in socioeconomic bubbles. Meaning, in other communities people live and interact primarily with people in their own financial brackets. If you are moderately wealthy. You live in a middle to upper class community send your kids to school with other people who have similar income brackets etc. that’s your social circle. If you are mega wealthy. You generally socialize with mega wealthy people, live in an Uber expensive community where everyone else is mega wealthy. Etc. in our communities we have very poor kids and comfortable and mega wealthy in the same class. Parents sitting in shul together etc. so it highlights the vast differences. And that’s something very wealthy people in other communities don’t really face.

2. The excessive consumerism in the Frum community. I am a chabad shlucha with some incredible wealthy congregants. When I say money. I mean. We’ve been in their private jets and officiated at bar mitzvah that cost well over a million pounds. These people don’t even know what to do with their money.
Hence the over top celebrations.

And yet. I was just in Brooklyn and the average mother shopping in the grocery store on Thursday night and paying with their food stamp card was wearing SIGNIFICANTLY more jewelry than the women I know who not only owns a private jet but keeps it fully staffed 24 hour a day 365 days a year in case they want to hop on the plane.

So why is a 26 year old mother of 3 on food stamps shopping for groceries wearing more jewelry than the wife of a billionaire?

Now this woman owns really beautiful pieces. She wears them to galas and events and other such things. On a regular day she is wearing diamond studs. A watch and her wedding and engagement rings. That’s all. Anything else would be considered wildly inappropriate for an average day.

Now she dresses beautifully and I’m sure all her clothes are wildly expensive. But there’s never a brand name or label in sight. And this goes for the whole social crew.

And these people are all incredible generous. And give a fortune of tzedaka. So don’t give me the whole abundance mindset.

3. Is every lifestyle really in line with Torah values? Is a focus on buying and getting the latest trends, styles, brands and whatever really what a Frum Jew is meant to be focusing on? (Not even getting into the dubious morality and halachic issues of buying fake brands)

Is if you’ve got it, flaunt it, A Jewish concept?

And does the shopping habits of the wealthy people trickle down and impact what becomes the norms for everybody else?

Yiddishkeit doesn’t believe in socialism, but it also places very little, if any value, on materialism, and to pretend otherwise is really requires a lot of mental gymnastics.

Does that mean we need lead ascetic lifestyles.
Of course not, and as always, nuance is a lost art in 2023 and people tend to fall into extremes on either end of almost any issues.

Again. I don’t have any answers. But it’s definitely something to think about. And yea. There’re are elements of the rest of the world that flaunt their money and wear a lot of jewelersy they tend to be on reality TV shows a lot. So that tends to skew people’s information of what the rest of the world looks like. But go to the expensive neighborhoods in silicon valley, in New England, in Europe.

Of course there are some areas of Florida and New York where conspicuous consumerism is just everywhere. But in most parts of the world. It’s not like that.

amother

Camellia

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 6:50 am

The question is what is flaunting? People who like to spend may not feel that they are being showy, even though it's in everyone's faces.
Nowadays all someone has to do is drop a line about $200 sneakers or a picture from vacation, and it can be considered flaunting by those of us with a different mentality.

amother

Bone

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 6:55 am

I wonder if wanting to be ostentatious is just something that is sort of in the Jewish DNA? Because there have been times in our history where rabbanim put out strong takanos specifically to cut down on it?
One example is Rabbi Gamliel, I think, who instituted the practice of being buried in a plain wooden coffin. Bec before then it was a thing to do fancy coffins inlaid with expensive silks and jewels. Many Jewish families went into serious debt to bury their loved ones according to standard--it was a real societal problem.
Much more recent in the times of Gluckel of Hameln, the rabbanim where she lived forbade women from wearing jewelry other than a wedding rings as well as certain types of fancy clothing when they left the house (other than a bride during her week of sheva brachos).
I don't know if I'd call it flaunting. I don't think the woman wearing a big diamond necklace+bracelets+earrings to the grocery store is flaunting it to show off. I think it's more about being ostentatious vs lower key.

cupcake123

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 6:57 am

I'm still waiting for the example of threads where imas brag about there wealth

amother

Bone

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 6:59 am

cupcake123 wrote:

I'm still waiting for the example of threads where imas brag about there wealth

That was my point. I don't think flaunting is the word which makes sense here.
What op is referring to is about living ostentatiously. Nobody is literally bragging about their wealthy lifestyle.

amother

Maple

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:03 am

I disagree. No one is inflicting pain by choosing to shop in places with better quality than Walmart. The Torah speaks about jealousy and being happy with what you have. This is not a Torah value, to accuse others of flaunting by having more than you and inflicting pain by having more than you have. It’s sad that people have been so consumed with materialism that they can’t handle other people having more than them.

amother

Red

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:06 am

I have never seen flaunting wealth on imamother - just some stating facts. I am going to Florida, I bought high end sneakers, I like nicer clothing… nothing wrong with that.
I have seen a lot of shaming. If someone says I bought … or am going to… there are many people here who say how can you… why…I would never do that… need to budget… need to scrimp…need to save…

I’m thinking of one poster in particular who Hashem gave her the means to be able to spend and enjoy more and she is so so so generous on here! If someone says they are struggling she is the first person to say send me your grocer name and number. I’ll put $ on your bill. And people are bashing her??!!???!!

Who cares what and how people spend. You do what you feel is right for you!!

amother

Eggplant

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:15 am

The flaunting is happening in real life. Here on imamother we are venting about it.

It’s happening on Instagram, LinkedIn, WhatsApp and in person (why did you need the moose knuckles coat instead of a cost equally expensive with no logo? Why did you need to post about Dubai or your $600 steak dinner?)

amother

Maple

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:17 am

amother Eggplant wrote:

It’s on you to stop spending time on platforms that make you feel like this. Why do you think it’s on them to stop living? This is so backward.

amother

Eggplant

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:31 am

amother Maple wrote:

It’s on you to stop spending time on platforms that make you feel like this. Why do you think it’s on them to stop living? This is so backward.

I dont spend time but I see it in real life. In my neighborhood one husband took out a loan to buy his wife a 30k piece of jewelry bec her friend just got it and she had to have it. Another guy asked for kimcha dpischa bec his wife spent their cash on a fur coat bec her neighbor got one

amother

Eggplant

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:34 am

amother Maple wrote:

It’s on you to stop spending time on platforms that make you feel like this. Why do you think it’s on them to stop living? This is so backward.

It’s backward to think that toning it down to be less obvious, more discreet (but still just as enjoyable comfortable expensive etc) is “stop living.”

amother

Eggplant

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:35 am

Let’s call conspicuous consumption by its name.

amother

Maple

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:38 am

amother Eggplant wrote:

It’s backward to think that toning it down to be less obvious, more discreet (but still just as enjoyable comfortable expensive etc) is “stop living.”

And what are these parameters for toning it down? How do you know it’s not toned down from what they originally wanted to spend? This is so self centered. It’s not a Jewish value to judge and be jealous. Why do you think it’s not on you to work on your middos instead of spending your whole day asking the world to change to accommodate your issues?

amother

Maple

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:39 am

amother Eggplant wrote:

Can’t discuss third hand information. We can’t know if these are true stories or not.

amother

Eggplant

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:41 am

amother Maple wrote:

Conspicuous consumption is also not a Jewish value. I’m working on my part; now you do yours.