Finance shaming VS Flaunting

Amarante

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 12:50 pm

amother Bone wrote:

True if you're talking 100-150 years ago. But the Hearst money for example goes back much farther than those Jewish families of nowadays. Most Jewish wealth is post WW2.

BTW, Edith Wharton's family was still considered aristocratic but they were basically living in genteel poverty by the time she was growing up. That's why she faced such pressure to marry into money and why she had a miserable marriage which eventually ended and she left America and lived the rest of her life in Europe.

That is part of the constant underlying theme of her books - the old Dutch of New York City were relatively poor compared to the nouveau riche but they managed to buy their way into upper society.

Sometimes literally as when they couldn't get desirable boxes at the Academy of Music on 14th Street so the built the old Metropolitan Opera house which was demolished when Lincoln Center was builtin the 1960's.

Similarly the old Southern aristocratic slave owners were impoverished after the Civil War but clung to their status

The closest old money that Jews have would be the German Jewish families like the Guggenheims that accumulated wealth in the latter of the 19th Century. They were - for the most part - terrible snobs who despised the Eastern European immigrants and didn't want to be associated with them or their vulgar ways. And of course the Rothschild's in Europe.

Last edited by Amarante on Thu, Jan 26 2023, 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:05 pm

I love how some of you are so excited about "old Money" and how modest they are. These people growing up with that much money are living in a different world than 99.9% of us and they can't relate to us commoners at all. They live in a totally different world than us. Of course they don't care how they dress when they are around you, they have no social pressure around you. I can gaurantee you that they have their own societal pressures when they are around their "class" of people.
Of course their private jet is not on their name it's a business expense for them so that they could get tax deductions and other perks. Their cars aren't on their name either.

amother

Brown

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:11 pm

amother Watermelon wrote:

A while back, as part of my work, I met with a group of (nonreligious) donors, all of whom had given eight figures to a particular foundation. Every single one of them dressed modestly. No flashy jewelery, no brand names, just low-key casual clothing. The women wore their hair short or pulled back, not cascading in waves down their backs. There's a lot to be learned from that kind of behavior.

It's important to find peers who understand modesty. There's nothing wrong with enjoying this world, but drawing attention to your wealth is in poor taste.

I’ve found that too. Those comfortable in their wealth don’t show off with fancy cars or jewelry.
I’ve heard more than once that the ones with the fancy stuff are insecure and have low self esteem so they need to scream to the world that they have money

amother

Brown

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:16 pm

amother Maple wrote:

I disagree. No one is inflicting pain by choosing to shop in places with better quality than Walmart. The Torah speaks about jealousy and being happy with what you have. This is not a Torah value, to accuse others of flaunting by having more than you and inflicting pain by having more than you have. It’s sad that people have been so consumed with materialism that they can’t handle other people having more than them.

So your saying the ones consumed with materialism are the ones who are jealous, not the ones showing off all their jewelry, fancy car, etc?

amother

Brown

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:18 pm

amother Red wrote:

I have never seen flaunting wealth on imamother - just some stating facts. I am going to Florida, I bought high end sneakers, I like nicer clothing… nothing wrong with that.
I have seen a lot of shaming. If someone says I bought … or am going to… there are many people here who say how can you… why…I would never do that… need to budget… need to scrimp…need to save…

I’m thinking of one poster in particular who Hashem gave her the means to be able to spend and enjoy more and she is so so so generous on here! If someone says they are struggling she is the first person to say send me your grocer name and number. I’ll put $ on your bill. And people are bashing her??!!???!!

Who cares what and how people spend. You do what you feel is right for you!!

Maybe it’s more a matter of being quiet about and considering those who are struggling and hurting badly financially .
Mentioning your cruise or your $500 sneakers might hurt and trigger the ones who are crying every month when they can’t make the rent on their one bedroom basement apt
Sensitivity and tznius is key.

amother

Brown

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:29 pm

amother Slateblue wrote:

That’s some generalizing

amother

Bone

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:49 pm

Amarante wrote:

That is part of the constant underlying theme of her books - the old Dutch of New York City were relatively poor compared to the nouveau riche but they managed to buy their way into upper society.

Sometimes literally as when they couldn't get desirable boxes at the Academy of Music on 14th Street so the built the old Metropolitan Opera house which was demolished when Lincoln Center was builtin the 1960's.

Similarly the old Southern aristocratic slave owners were impoverished after the Civil War but clung to their status

The closest old money that Jews have would be the German Jewish families that accumulated wealth in the latter of the 19th Century. They were - for the most part - terrible snobs who despised the Eastern European immigrants and didn't want to be associated with them or their vulgar ways. And of course the Rothschild's in Europe.

Yes, I've read all of Edith Wharton. By the way did you know the phrase "keeping up with the Joneses" was supposedly coined about her family? (Her maiden name was Jones)
Old money families like hers certainly looked down at the new money ones, they considered them quite vulgar. She certainly portrayed them as vulgar in her books (like in Custom of the Country for example).

Those old German Jewish families may still have money now but few of their descendants are actually Jewish at this point let alone frum. So this concept really doesn't exist in the frum world. And anyway, the frum world doesn't have an upper class vs lower class caste society system in the same way. We are all in in together.

amother

Carnation

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:40 pm

amother Acacia wrote:

Clearly you haven’t been grocery shopping in Brooklyn recently if you think I am referring to two rings on a hand. There was at least two rings on each hand, including a large diamond ring, an eternity band and some other blingy stuff) stacked bracelets on one wrist. And a tennis bracelet on the other. Big earrings with stones. And some necklaces. It was blinding.

And ya a private jet is over the top. Completely. But It’s not something they ever talk about or something most people see. Like they don’t land in their driveway or drop their kids off at school on their jet. And when they fly to Israel on it. I mean if you see them coming on or off their jet, you are in the private aircraft area coming on or off your own jet. It’s not like the people flying coach can see them. I just know about it because they gave us a ride once and it came up about the staff. Their plane is technically a company plane. It’s not privately owned. Not sure if that’s better or worse. But also per the annual income it’s a smaller percentage than most people spend on their car.

Anyway… I just gave the private jet as an example of the kind of money these people have.

Like I don’t think too many imamothers have private jets roaming around in hangars. Although. Who know.

#lifegoals
sounds like the stuff of dreams
would love to know or be these people
only half kidding

amother

Eggplant

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:29 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

Am I living under a rock to think that either of the stories you wrote can’t possibly be widespread?

I meant, conspicuous consumption and its fallout (causing pain to others, jealousy etc and people feeling like they have to keep up) is being talked about in society. This man had a story illustrating the importance of living in your means and also the dangers of flaunting your wealth in a place where not everyone can afford what you are flaunting

amother

Honeysuckle

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 4:29 pm

amother Seafoam wrote:

Ahem, mark zuckerberg does not wear wal mart tees.
But why not talk about Kylie Jenner, Jeffrey star and all the Tik Tok stars that the youth idolizes?

Though I agree that the secular world has casual clothes for casual activities while in the frum world there is never a time to dress casually. It is a little old fashioned and conservative that woman always have to look made up and bejeweled.

Can I just say this gave me a great laug!!😂😂😂😂🤣

amother

Hyssop

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 6:18 pm

I once attended 2 different yomtov meals in Israel by 2 of the biggest Jewish philanthropist names.

One of them rented the entire penthouse of a luxury hotel, full view of the kotel, had the whole meal catered, waiters serving it etc. It was a very shmaltzy meal. I can't really describe it. The hosts were dripping in glitz and kavod.

The other one owned a private home with private chefs and the meal was cooked and served by them. Simplest guy I ever met. Me being slow, I didn't even realize who exactly the host was at the table. The hostess was wearing a plain dress and no jewelry.

This was early on in our marriage and it left a huge impression on me and my husband. We always say we want to make enough money to enjoy and spend it as understated as the second guy.

Btw I am also familiar with fabulously wealthy secular Jews and that shlucha is right. The average multimillionaire wears jeans and diamond studs. They look fabulous, they're perfectly groomed, and they have all the help in the world, but they're wearing less makeup, jewelry and designer labels than the average person walking around Boro Park.

I personally know someone whose name is on every Jewish building and she doesn't even wear real diamonds. She wears huge cz and keeps the real ones in the bank lol.

amother

Bluebell

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:00 pm

sequoia wrote:

Flaunting your wealth by wearing flashy jewelry and expensive clothes and sheitels in everyday life (like to the grocery store) is exclusively a frum thing. Look at how Mark Zuckerberg and his wife dress.

In the 19th c. it was definitely a thing to display your wealth through clothes, and since frum society is still culturally in many ways in the Victorian Era…

I understand your point but I don't think Mark Zuckerberg should be used as an example of normative fashion. He doesn't dress like the CEO of any company where I've ever worked.

amother

Charcoal

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 9:22 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

This. All of this. I just love this post. I wonder what will happen with the imamother kids who’s moms boast about how they WON’T buy their kids the stylish sneakers because “what a waste of money, and it’s not our values, blah, blah.” I think many of them will be surprised to find what values they actually instilled in their kids.

A lot of uber wealthy people are very careful not to spoil their kids.

amother

DarkRed

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:51 pm

Once upon a time, I would come onto Imamother for advice, tips, and whatnot.

Nowadays, one can't ask

I'm going to Florida because of offending non vacationers
I'm looking for a restaurant because of offending those who can't go out to eat
I'm looking for a carriage because of how dare you even consider a bugaboo or doona
I'm looking to renovate because of why can't you leave the house as is
I'm looking for cleaning lady=clean yourself or live in pigsty

Why does everything have to = trigger?

If I start a post a question about my upcoming vacation, the only responses that there should be is advice about such trip. Not I cant go, so how dare you go.

If I want to know about an SUV, don't pipe up about how I should be driving a battered minivan.
If I decide to spend $100 on shoes, because I bought them in a yiddishe store, please don't tell me to go to walmart or target, where I should spend $40 on a pair of shoes.

If the subject title of a post were to say "which carriage should I get" and someone responds doona, the next line should not be "how dare you even think of spending money on a doona" one can respond, I personally wouldn't spend the money on a doona, as I'm happy with the graco. when someone is asking advice on something, they are usually trying to weigh the pros and cons. Its not a contest as to who is spending more or not.

Let's assume for a minute, I live in a house that costs me $1.7M, drive a Cadillac SUV, have live in cleaning help, a chauffeur and a personal cook. I come on here, and ask, I'm looking to build an extension to my house, anyone have any ideas? the only responses there should be are helpful ideas, not I can't afford to expand my house, therefore I live in a 2x2 apt hole in the wall. If I ask information about a live in-don't chime in how you are so frugal and wouldn't spend even a dime on cleaning help.

If you got this far reading this-Sorry for rambling.

amother

Azure

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 1:43 am

amother Eggplant wrote:

The flaunting is happening in real life. Here on imamother we are venting about it.

It’s happening on Instagram, LinkedIn, WhatsApp and in person (why did you need the moose knuckles coat instead of a cost equally expensive with no logo? Why did you need to post about Dubai or your $600 steak dinner?)

I’m always laughing so hard when I see Frum Women wear items with the Moose Knuckles logo. Do they know that the term is slang and refers specifically to a man who’s clothing is so tight in the crotch that his genitalia bulge out dramatically?

The company took that name for itself on purpose. Just look at the language they use about their furs on the company website.

“ANIMAL WELFARE

At Moose Knuckles, we give a f*ck. In others words, we care; we really f*cking care.”

It just so hilarious when these women don’t even know what they have plastered on their clothing. 😀😀😀