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mommy3b2c
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 Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:51 am
Some of my thoughts. Children learn from example. If you preach to them about your values, but don’t live by your values they won’t learn anything.
So you might say, “I do live by example. I never buy meat and only buy chicken two times a week. My child sees this and understands that just like I don’t serve chicken more often to save money, he can understand that we will buy cheaper sneakers to save money.”
But in actuality, your child is not learning what you think he’s learning. It’s very possible that if you asked him where to save money, he would choose cereal and milk for supper every night so that he can get the sneakers he wants. So what he’s actually learning is that you scrimp on HIS value (sneakers ) so that you can have YOUR value (chicken).
And guess what? Maybe he’s right. Maybe you should serve cereal and milk for supper every night so he can get the sneakers that at this point in time is so important to him that he feels so desperate he would do anything for them. Maybe he feels that getting those sneakers would help him fit in and help him make the friends he so badly needs to boost his self esteem.
Something I’ve noticed: people who grow up poor and got clothing from hand me down bags come in two basic types.
Type 1: I don’t care if you want that new name brand sweater. It’s not our values, it’s so unimportant, it’s shtuss. Be happy you have clothes that aren’t torn. Don’t you know the children in Africa are running around naked?
Type 2: my darling love. I know you so badly want that moose knuckle sweater. It’s just a sweater but I see that to you it’s very important. I wish with all my heart that I can get it for you because even though it’s not something important to me, it’s important to you, and therefore it became important to me. Right now we just can’t afford it. One day , hopefully we can but until then let’s try to be grateful for this bag of stylish second hand clothes and maybe try to save up for the sweater one day.
The first type grow up so resentful and learned nothing about values except that they and their needs weren’t valued . When they grow up they are the ones flaunting and buying things that they can’t afford.
The second one is much more likely to grow up knowing that things are not that important. Because when you are valued as a person, you don’t end up needing things to make yourself feel valued.
Just some random rambling and thoughts. Feel free to chime in. I might add more if I have more time.
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amother
Thistle
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:59 am
You forgot the option of raising your kids in a neighborhood where no one has ever heard of moose knuckle sweaters. (Is that even a thing?) Or at the very least, in a neighborhood where it's understood, by adults as well as children, that you don't need this year's trend to fit in.
Teenagers do have a greater need to fit in with their peers than others do. But no three month old infant ever needed a trendy onesie. That baby has a mom who hasn't moved on from her teenage years.
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watergirl
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:59 am
When I was a kid, I wanted these shoes. I've posted about them here before. There was a brand before Sketchers called LA Gear. There was this shoe that all the girls at school had, with color changing embroidered flowers and a few different colored shoe laces that were meant to be worn all at the same time. After I post this, I'll go back and put in the picture. They were so very 80s and I loved them and begged for them.
But they were $45. Way more than my parents could spend or were willing to spend or both, I don't know. But I was 10 and I begged for them. So one day my father came home with them and gave them to me in such a way that I could not wear them. They sat in their box and I stared at them and the next day I handed them back to my dad and told him to return them, as I could not enjoy them. Instead of telling me to take them, wear them, and enjoy, he praised me for making the right choice. And he returned the shoes. I never forgot that, clearly, and even writing this out makes me feel that pit in my stomach that I felt over 30 years ago.
The lesson I took from this is to never, ever be like that with my kids. No, I can not afford $100 shoes when my teen daughter wants. But I can help and split it with her. If there is a trend toy in my kid's class and they want it, I buy it for them. Ok, not the Nintendo Switch (he bought it with his bar mitzvah money and I bought a few games for him), but yes, the Top Trump cards, yes, the Perplexus, and yes, the Circle magazine.
I can teach my kids my values and daven I do it in the best way possible. But I can not make them the korban over it.
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mommy3b2c
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 12:44 pm
| watergirl wrote: | When I was a kid, I wanted these shoes. I've posted about them here before. There was a brand before Sketchers called LA Gear. There was this shoe that all the girls at school had, with color changing embroidered flowers and a few different colored shoe laces that were meant to be worn all at the same time. After I post this, I'll go back and put in the picture. They were so very 80s and I loved them and begged for them.
But they were $45. Way more than my parents could spend or were willing to spend or both, I don't know. But I was 10 and I begged for them. So one day my father came home with them and gave them to me in such a way that I could not wear them. They sat in their box and I stared at them and the next day I handed them back to my dad and told him to return them, as I could not enjoy them. Instead of telling me to take them, wear them, and enjoy, he praised me for making the right choice. And he returned the shoes. I never forgot that, clearly, and even writing this out makes me feel that pit in my stomach that I felt over 30 years ago.
The lesson I took from this is to never, ever be like that with my kids. No, I can not afford $100 shoes when my teen daughter wants. But I can help and split it with her. If there is a trend toy in my kid's class and they want it, I buy it for them. Ok, not the Nintendo Switch (he bought it with his bar mitzvah money and I bought a few games for him), but yes, the Top Trump cards, yes, the Perplexus, and yes, the Circle magazine.
I can teach my kids my values and daven I do it in the best way possible. But I can not make them the korban over it.
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First of all, I’m so sorry you had to have that experience . I actually got tears in my eyes when I pictured it in my mind. And it’s such a good example of what I’m trying to verbalize in this thread. Teaching your children values can’t be forced. It needs to be done with love and compassion.
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amother
Tan
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:07 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | Some of my thoughts. Children learn from example. If you preach to them about your values, but don’t live by your values they won’t learn anything.
So you might say, “I do live by example. I never buy meat and only buy chicken two times a week. My child sees this and understands that just like I don’t serve chicken more often to save money, he can understand that we will buy cheaper sneakers to save money.”
But in actuality, your child is not learning what you think he’s learning. It’s very possible that if you asked him where to save money, he would choose cereal and milk for supper every night so that he can get the sneakers he wants. So what he’s actually learning is that you scrimp on HIS value (sneakers ) so that you can have YOUR value (chicken).
And guess what? Maybe he’s right. Maybe you should serve cereal and milk for supper every night so he can get the sneakers that at this point in time is so important to him that he feels so desperate he would do anything for them. Maybe he feels that getting those sneakers would help him fit in and help him make the friends he so badly needs to boost his self esteem.
Something I’ve noticed: people who grow up poor and got clothing from hand me down bags come in two basic types.
Type 1: I don’t care if you want that new name brand sweater. It’s not our values, it’s so unimportant, it’s shtuss. Be happy you have clothes that aren’t torn. Don’t you know the children in Africa are running around naked?
Type 2: my darling love. I know you so badly want that moose knuckle sweater. It’s just a sweater but I see that to you it’s very important. I wish with all my heart that I can get it for you because even though it’s not something important to me, it’s important to you, and therefore it became important to me. Right now we just can’t afford it. One day , hopefully we can but until then let’s try to be grateful for this bag of stylish second hand clothes and maybe try to save up for the sweater one day.
The first type grow up so resentful and learned nothing about values except that they and their needs weren’t valued . When they grow up they are the ones flaunting and buying things that they can’t afford.
The second one is much more likely to grow up knowing that things are not that important. Because when you are valued as a person, you don’t end up needing things to make yourself feel valued.
Just some random rambling and thoughts. Feel free to chime in. I might add more if I have more time. |
Just want to say I relate to what you wrote here. Chicken/parents wants vs sneakers/kids wants. My parents never had a lot of money in general but they were very forceful when it came to what they spent their money on. And it was never my needs or wants. I grew up feeling invalidated so much that I convinced myself that I truly "didnt need anything". Once I had control over my money, I realized I really like nice things. Now, I have a hard time regulating these decisions when it comes to my own kids because I felt so invalidated and deprived throughout my own childhood. I don't want them to grow up invalidated like I did but I also don't want them to never learn the value of a dollar (or even a penny!) And to how to appreciate money and make responsible, long term financial decisions (which are the positive aspects of how I grew up)
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ShishKabob
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:11 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | Some of my thoughts. Children learn from example. If you preach to them about your values, but don’t live by your values they won’t learn anything.
| I liked most of your post however this line I really really agree with. So so true!
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amother
Cyclamen
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:17 pm
I noticed something similar.
Sometimes people who can't afford so much, will bend over backwards to give stuff to their kids.
Whereas those that can afford, the kids don't feel the need to have every single thing, and can sometimes have less than those with less money. Because they don't feel the need to fit in with everything because they've got enough.
An example, I had two friends - one wealthy, one poor. The poor one always had brand name clothing and fancy bags, whereas the rich one didn't feel the need to flaunt all of that and rather knew that they didn't need it just because everyone has it.
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ShishKabob
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:20 pm
| amother Cyclamen wrote: | I noticed something similar.
Sometimes people who can't afford so much, will bend over backwards to give stuff to their kids.
Whereas those that can afford, the kids don't feel the need to have every single thing, and can sometimes have less than those with less money. Because they don't feel the need to fit in with everything because they've got enough.
An example, I had two friends - one wealthy, one poor. The poor one always had brand name clothing and fancy bags, whereas the rich one didn't feel the need to flaunt all of that and rather knew that they didn't need it just because everyone has it. | This reminds me of a story where the mother told her kids that they don't need many things because they have a swiss account or a treasure somewhere or something like that and the kids were pretty much satisfied living with the minimal.
It's all in our minds. If we feel / believe that we are rich, we don't have a need to measure up with anyone else. If we feel / believe that we are lacking we try to overcompensate many times.
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amother
Cyclamen
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:21 pm
Personally, I grew up in a comfortable family, but my mom didn't understand my needs. So I'd ask for something once - more like gently broach the idea. But she never agreed or got the hint.
Now I love buying nice stuff and sometimes I recognize that I'm buying this sweater because it's something I was desperate for in my teen years.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:25 pm
| amother Cyclamen wrote: | I noticed something similar.
Sometimes people who can't afford so much, will bend over backwards to give stuff to their kids.
Whereas those that can afford, the kids don't feel the need to have every single thing, and can sometimes have less than those with less money. Because they don't feel the need to fit in with everything because they've got enough.
An example, I had two friends - one wealthy, one poor. The poor one always had brand name clothing and fancy bags, whereas the rich one didn't feel the need to flaunt all of that and rather knew that they didn't need it just because everyone has it. |
It's interesting - I once posted on this site that when I got married, my father could afford to make my simple wedding, and set me up simply in an apartment. And that's what I got. I was fine, I had no issue with it. (I mean SIMPLE here. But no tzedaka funds.)
I knew someone in my neighborhood who got married around the same time as me. There was an appeal in shul to help her family marry her off, as her family really had no money. She had a much fancier wedding, and much fancier setup.
When I think about it, I had my dignity. At least she had "things".
When my oldest was just walking, I was buying her shoes at the local shoe store. I looked around and chose a simple (but cute - didn't have to be the fanciest) pair (I was definitely price conscious) with good support, etc...one pair at that age. No need for Shabbos shoes for my not-yet-two-year old. My little toddler had no idea nor opinion on buying shoes yet.
The woman I mentioned above was in the store with her 2-year-old. She was showing her 2-year-old both Shabbos and weekday shoes, the most trendy there were, and asking the little tot "do you like these? how about these?"
I remember thinking, she didn't get to choose...she's living vicariously thru her kids.
(hard to say though. I did have a different child who had definite opinions almost as soon as she could talk. )
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Reality
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:25 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | Some of my thoughts. Children learn from example. If you preach to them about your values, but don’t live by your values they won’t learn anything.
So you might say, “I do live by example. I never buy meat and only buy chicken two times a week. My child sees this and understands that just like I don’t serve chicken more often to save money, he can understand that we will buy cheaper sneakers to save money.”
But in actuality, your child is not learning what you think he’s learning. It’s very possible that if you asked him where to save money, he would choose cereal and milk for supper every night so that he can get the sneakers he wants. So what he’s actually learning is that you scrimp on HIS value (sneakers ) so that you can have YOUR value (chicken).
And guess what? Maybe he’s right. Maybe you should serve cereal and milk for supper every night so he can get the sneakers that at this point in time is so important to him that he feels so desperate he would do anything for them. Maybe he feels that getting those sneakers would help him fit in and help him make the friends he so badly needs to boost his self esteem.
Something I’ve noticed: people who grow up poor and got clothing from hand me down bags come in two basic types.
Type 1: I don’t care if you want that new name brand sweater. It’s not our values, it’s so unimportant, it’s shtuss. Be happy you have clothes that aren’t torn. Don’t you know the children in Africa are running around naked?
Type 2: my darling love. I know you so badly want that moose knuckle sweater. It’s just a sweater but I see that to you it’s very important. I wish with all my heart that I can get it for you because even though it’s not something important to me, it’s important to you, and therefore it became important to me. Right now we just can’t afford it. One day , hopefully we can but until then let’s try to be grateful for this bag of stylish second hand clothes and maybe try to save up for the sweater one day.
The first type grow up so resentful and learned nothing about values except that they and their needs weren’t valued . When they grow up they are the ones flaunting and buying things that they can’t afford.
The second one is much more likely to grow up knowing that things are not that important. Because when you are valued as a person, you don’t end up needing things to make yourself feel valued.
Just some random rambling and thoughts. Feel free to chime in. I might add more if I have more time. |
If you personally have never struggled financially, it's really not your place to comment and pass judgment. You have no idea how you would behave if you had no money just as I have no idea how I would behave if I was a millionaire.
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mommy3b2c
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:25 pm
| Reality wrote: | | If you personally have never struggled financially, it's really not your place to comment and pass judgment. You have no idea how you would behave if you had no money just as I have no idea how I would behave if I was a millionaire. |
And who says I never struggled financially??
Also, this is not about judgement. Generally , people do the best they have with the tools they have. That doesn’t mean they are right. I am throwing out a different point of view. No one should be judged for doing things the wrong way if they don’t know another way, but if there is another way, maybe it’s time to try it?
Also, I’ve never been a millionaire. But the whole point of these threads is that people DO judge millionaires. And some posters are saying please stop.
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Reality
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:30 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | And who says I never struggled financially??
Also, this is not about judgement. Generally , people do the best they have with the tools they have. That doesn’t mean they are right. I am throwing out a different point of view. No one should be judged for doing things the wrong way if they don’t know another way, but if there is another way, maybe it’s time to try it?
Also, I’ve never been a millionaire. But the whole point of these threads is that people DO judge millionaires. And some posters are saying please stop. |
Maybe you have, I don't know you. My point is if you have never struggled to buy chicken, you have no idea how you would behave/react. It's not your place to preach.
Have you ever in your life struggled to buy chicken?
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mommy3b2c
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:58 pm
| Reality wrote: | Maybe you have, I don't know you. My point is if you have never struggled to buy chicken, you have no idea how you would behave/react. It's not your place to preach.
Have you ever in your life struggled to buy chicken? |
I have struggled to buy bread and milk. And anyway, who’s preaching? I’m letting people know that there is another way. Maybe a better way to reach values is to actually value the child?
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Reality
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:01 pm
| mommy3b2c wrote: | | I have struggled to buy bread and milk. And anyway, who’s preaching? I’m letting people know that there is another way. Maybe a better way to reach values is to actually value the child? |
Then you should understand that people in financial difficulties don't act 100% rational. Your posting about it won't change anyone's psychological reaction to poverty.
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amother
Rose
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:17 pm
| Reality wrote: | | Then you should understand that people in financial difficulties don't act 100% rational. Your posting about it won't change anyone's psychological reaction to poverty. |
Ok, then take it from me then. I have 16k in debt and can’t afford designer things etc. however I believe 1000% in what mommy3b2c is saying.
Money comes from the ribono shel olam. I am proud to say that I have never once laid awake in bed worrying about money. Never!
And before you say that I don’t know what it’s like to worry, let me tell you. I have both anxiety and depression. I take Lexipro every day which doesn’t get rid of all my symptoms. But I do have complete and total trust that everything Hashem has given me is good
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chanatron1000
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:18 pm
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The reason kids need expensive things to boost their self esteem is because they're absorbing the message that having money is the key to self worth.
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Reality
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:22 pm
| amother Rose wrote: | Ok, then take it from me then. I have 16k in debt and can’t afford designer things etc. however I believe 1000% in what mommy3b2c is saying.
Money comes from the ribono shel olam. I am proud to say that I have never once laid awake in bed worrying about money. Never!
And before you say that I don’t know what it’s like to worry, let me tell you. I have both anxiety and depression. I take Lexipro every day which doesn’t get rid of all my symptoms. But I do have complete and total trust that everything Hashem has given me is good |
With all my heart, I say good for you. But for many people, it's a nisayon they fail. Why kick them when they are down? Part of being an adult is having compassion for other people's weaknesses and foibles.
For a person who struggles with bitachon, none of these posts are actually going to help them. What's the point?
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amother
DarkKhaki
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:26 pm
| Reality wrote: | | Then you should understand that people in financial difficulties don't act 100% rational. Your posting about it won't change anyone's psychological reaction to poverty. |
I have $11 in my bank account . My DH had $20 in our other account this week. I vacillate every week whether I should buy chicken every week. I still agree with the OP.
When I was growing up I had a positive view on hand me downs. Even though I received a bought dress only 4 times in my life until I was 16 , I remember that I always felt fancy in my hand me downs. My mother knew how much I wanted the United Colors of Benetton sweatshirts and she found one in a peckle of hand me downs , it had a stain and a hole. She picked it out special for me because she knew what was important to me. She closed the hole and tried to remove the stain. I knew that if we had the money she’d let me buy one . I loved that sweatshirt and wore it until it had holes. I still love hand me downs to this day. It makes me feel special and loved when I get them.
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chanatron1000
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 3:34 pm
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By buying the thing, you just might be sending the message that people are supposed to forego necessities for luxuries to prove their worth. You might be setting them up to feel guilty about purchasing anything that is enjoyed privately instead of something they can flaunt.
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