More on the finance threads

gr82no

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:42 pm

Also what’s wrong with spending a lot of money on an outfit? Let’s say I give a chomesh to tzedaka already and I can afford it why should the money sit in a bank account if I can use it to make me happy?
It’s not a Jewish value to be obsessed with gashmius but to wear an expensive outfit I don’t see anything wrong with it.
I don’t think mommy 3b2c was looking for an expensive outfit. She was looking for an outfit she likes (he’s adorable btw). Also I don’t think she’s mentioning that she gives tzedaka to brag I think it’s so that you don’t say she should give it tzedaka instead of spending it.

Btw mommy3b2c ur son wasn’t cold in January wearing shorts?

NechaMom

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:50 pm

gr82no wrote:

To add to that, I love reading her posts when she offers anything on a thread. It’s a true kiddush Hashem and makes others strive to be as generous as they can too. Everyone according to their means.
I really don’t get any of the bashing on these finance threads today. I feel there must be underlying jealousy in all posts dripping with bitterness on all these threads.

amother

Ebony

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:03 pm

Again, there is no problem spending that kind of money.
I spend plenty on other things. I’m bh very comfortable. But there’s a diff between getting shamed for eating chicken every night, or getting a doona, or getting your kids name brand sneakers vs posting explicitly that you spent that kind of money. It’s a humble brag. Yes you are a generous person. Yes you give tzedaka, but there still is no reason to declare your spendings here.
This was volunteering extra info when it wasn’t necessary and yes I do see how that can hurt others. And I promise on the other thread I was the one saying that people have no right telling others how to spend. And I’m not, I’m just saying I guess this is what posters meant about flaunting.

amother

Trillium

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:29 pm

amother Ruby wrote:

Look, I'm not posting here to make you feel bad, but I'm also trying to make a point. Most socially normal people don't randomly say they spent 350 on a baby's outfit, but they nonchalantly stick it into the conversation, and now the other person (or in this case, all of Imamother) knows.

What's wrong is that it's a waste of money. Again, ideally I would not judge and say live and let live, but in my brain, I can't wrap my head around the idea of splurging so much money for something that doesn't have enough value to be worth it. A 4 year old can look just as adorable in something half the price. Wasting money like that is against jewish values. If for you, this was the only outfit that made you happy about how he looked, and you didn't have time to look for something more decently priced, so be it. But it's still something that is inherently not within the guidelines for how a Jewish person should be viewing and using their money. Even 200 is excessive enough, especially pre-current-inflation.

Spending lavishly for hiddur mitzva is a thing. But spending lavishly on a one-time use of a garment for a kid who doesn't even value it, just because it's "your hobby" is wrong.

I think the issue of lavishness is "Hatzneiya leches im Hashem Elokecha" to be modest.
But buying a beautiful outfit and shoes...no one knows the exact dollar amount...driving a lexus is much more outwardly lavish...I'm not a rabbi but I don't think there's any issue with it...
and she didn't announce it on Imamother..it's directly relevant to this conversation and part of her point...
and everyone needs to keep in mind...for one person something could be wrong and for another person this could be a mitzva...
for instance, if ordering things for my child helps me be in a better frame of mind whether regarding the child or another situation, that might be a mitzva for me..

amother

Rose

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 12:04 am

amother Grape wrote:

Amother Rose, in all seriousness-what you wrote touched me for some reason. I suffer from depression/anxiety as well I don’t bh have parnassah problems and I’m still anxious about $ and obsess about not having. How can I get that emunah…..

Thank you for saying that. It’s weird that I have anxiety because the other side of my personality is very chilled, so it does come easier to me. However I do learn bitachon all the time. I have found that shaar habitachon and just learning what hishtadlus is, has helped me a lot. Also, repeating certain phrases over and over until they are sunken in, like “it’s from Hashem, and everything from Hashem is good”. Also, I love the books “it’s all in your mind” 1 and 2 by Sara yosef. I can read them over and over again

I also get very inspired by the book emunah with love and chicken soup about reb Henny machlis. It’s a mussar Sefer and I reread it constantly

Reality

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 1:51 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

And what is the point of all the posts mocking those who spend money on designer clothing and high end restaurants? Why can’t we have compassion for other peoples weaknesses and foibles?

You are right. We all should. I do feel sorry for people running after silly things all day instead of finding actual meaning in their life.

My personal opinion? People spending so much time for the perfect "stuff" are all the same, no matter how much you spend on it. If you spend your whole life looking for knockoffs to cheaply copy the expensive designer clothes, it's worse in my book. Not only are you still worshipping fashion, every waking moment is obsessed with getting this from this store and that from this website. As opposed to the person who spends the big money, who buys it and doesn't waste so much headspace on it.

There would be a lot less threads on imamother if people just looked at their own purchases and stopped comparing to everyone else.

That being said, the Torah does specifically instruct us to not to hurt the underprivileged. There is no such instruction for wealthy people. It is quite obvious that people with money could not care less what the "little people" think about their lifestyle. So you really can't compare the two.

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 3:09 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

[[Snip]]

True story: a few years ago I made my first bar Mitzvah. I went shopping in September for my then 4 year old son because even though the bar mitzvah was in January, the new clothing lines come out in August and I wanted to be able to buy something that I liked. I decided to invite my mom even though I was hesitant to do so. But I went ahead and invited her to make her feel good. At first she was excited and then she said, “I hope you’re not going to buy him a ridiculously expensive outfit. I just can’t stomach it when you spend that much on a baby.” I used all of my self control not to slam down the phone on her. I don’t remember if she came or not. I do remember her comment. Mind your own business. I didn’t ask you to pay for it. P.S. the outfit and shoes cost $350. He wore it once. Don’t like it? That’s just to bad. That’s your own issue, not mine.

My in laws are the same. I have an oddly shaped living room and DH and I bought a custom couch to fit the space exactly so that we can really enjoy the space and have room for our family on it. Otherwise we would use the space much less. My FIL went nuts when he asked DH how much it cost. I don't even think DH gave him the exact price, he gave him a range. I wanted to scream-we dont ask you for money and it's not your house! MYOB!
I'm sure there are things they spend money on that I would think are crazy. Who cares?

amother

Mimosa

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 3:40 am

amother Mauve wrote:

What's funny is that everyone splurges SOMEWHERE. Nobody is so perfectly frugal that they never spend an extra penny where they could have saved one. Yes there are some people who splurge across the board, but most people are economical in some areas and more generous in others. But everyone is convinced that their way is right and anyone who spends in an area they don't is a spendthrift.

watergirl

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 6:32 am

amother Ebony wrote:

I happen to find some of this thread in poor taste and I’m of the very verbal posters against the shaming on the original finance thread.

This borders on flaunting. There’s no need to prove a point with specifics.

This is “in your face” and I do see how this can hurt people.

If I chose to spend $350- which I can afford but wouldn’t- I can do so, but it’s wrong to mention how much I spent on it.
Spend, enjoy, but don’t advertise it to prove a point. It’s not classy.

There is a current thread at the moment, woman posting about how great their husbands are.

There is another current thread about people posting what makes their marriages great.

People post all the time about vacations they go on.

People post all the time about the schools, camps, or seminaries their kids got into.

People post to hear about how they got married after a quick and easy shidduch parsha.

Women post hear about their many many children.

Nobody accuses these women about bragging and flaunting their husbands and their great marriages. There are plenty of women here who have horrible marriages, they are divorced, or widowed, and these threads are terribly hurtful to them. But they (mostly) skip the threads, or they hold their comments.

We all know how many people here would love to see their children in the right school, getting into camp, etc. Nobody accuses those women of flaunting and bragging about their good fortune and getting their kids into the right places. You don’t see women who are mothers of children with special needs telling the mothers who got their kid into their seminary of choice that their post is in bad taste.

I’m sure you know how many women here or deal with infertility. Nobody accuses a mother of 10 who posts how many children she has hear of bragging and flaunting.

A lot of threads here have potential to cause a lot of pain and bad feelings for many people. But we are all supposed to be grownups here and know what to avoid or how to scroll on.

Yet a post about money, that’s bad taste. The same HKBU who gave the good husband, who gave the children, who gave the schools, He also gave the money.

A post about it a vacation or a bracelet/eternity ring, or a $350 outfit is flaunting. Posting about renovating your house to make it “fitting for the frum lifestyle” a that’s just the Jewish norm apparently. It’s totally fine to post your weekly menu which features foods that a lot of us consider to be way too expensive for a weekday, that’s fine. It’s totally fine to post about your brand new Tesla in a space where the majority of readers could never even dream of one. That’s OK. Creating a pool asking how many children you have, that’s not flaunting.

There’s just a lot of cognitive dissonance. And people need to take ownership of their triggers and avoid them.

Personally, I have a current struggle and trigger that I never had before. There is a forum on this site dedicated to this topic, and I happen to be a moderator there. I knew there was no way for me to moderate or even see the topics without getting upset and triggered and snarky, so I told Yael that I am hiding it, and to please remove me as a moderator there. Problem solved.

On this website, it is extremely easy to know what threads to go into and which ones to avoid. Nobody is “making you feel bad” when they post some thing, you have to take ownership of your feelings. You allow yourself to feel bad, or to feel jealous. These are character traits that could be changed, but it takes time and work.

Highstrung

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 6:42 am

amother Ruby wrote:

I'm sorry mommy3b2c, I know you're posting under your SN and I'm anon (gave personal info in previous post), but what you are doing now is not ok. Posting that you spent $350 for a four year old is part of the problems we are talking about on this thread and on other threads.

I can't honestly say I don't judge you for spending that much money for a one-time wear for a little stinker, but ideally I'd love to say that, if for you it was worth it, ok, not my cup of tea but I guess that's what you needed to like how he looked. But to come here and post about it with the attitude of "sue me", like I did nothing wrong and I'm not even ashamed to post about it openly, that's a problem. You are trying to normalize or justify to yourself why it makes sense to spend that much money, but a) you're making other people feel bad that they can't do that
and b) it's not tznius to brag about lavish expenditures

I’m so lost. Why is it wrong? I’m as poor as poor comes and I have hanaah when I read posts that a person who can afford to spend on her child and she spends it. And the person you are talking about right now actually gives away more tzedakah than she spends. It’s not like she’s taking her wealth and using it all for herself and to brag. She’s taking the money she has, spends less on herself and splurges on her kids and gives the rest away to tzedaka. What is wrong with that?! If a person can’t handle reading another person’s post about what they did for their Simcha, I find something very wrong. Since when did it become ok to not fargin people? This is making me nauseous reading this stuff over and over again. She didn’t come here to brag. She was just giving a simple example, and here’s the proof! She gets bashed for it. Unbelievable.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 7:05 am

Highstrung wrote:

Exactly. I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry. I literally gave a direct example, hesitated before I wrote the price and then said to myself, “let’s go for it. Let’s see what happens.” And here we have it…

The jealousy, the shaming, the mocking, the accusations of showing off, of not being compassionate. And there’s no way to defend myself, because if I do, like by saying I do give tzedaka, then that’s considered another brag. It’s jealousy, plain and simple, people just really don’t want to admit it.

I won’t judge. I’ve never been jealous in my life. Envious, yes. I definitely want things other people have. My life is a painful one. But I can wish I have something and at the same be so happy for the people who do have it.

amother

Emerald

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 7:05 am

amother Thistle wrote:

You moved from Europe to the US, so you know it's possible to relocate. Even within New York, there are different schools and different neighborhoods. Some are more status conscious than others.

We choose where to live based on many things. I was saying that one consideration in choosing a neighborhood should be whether the neighbors live modestly.

No actually not really...I moved here for shidduchim purposes and honestly I don't feel like I had a choice
People don't generally get to choose where they live.(maybe if they are very wealthy)
Very very unrealistic for me to move with a family (I moved before marriage since I lived in a place with very few jews)
I would love if you can explain this further it seems like a big idea and solution here on this site and I really would love to understand it more

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 7:40 am

bella613 wrote:

My parents were the oppisate. They dressed really nicely and drove luxury clothes but refused/didn't care to dress their kids nicely. Me and my sisters would come to school with old, illfitted clothes and not brushed hair. Once I reached a lady's size in high school, my mom refused to buy me any clothes and would give me her hand me downs (even if they were baggy on me).
We all lacked basic self confidence and felt like a nerds. My parents rationale was that they work hard for their money, so we don't deserve new clothes or any luxuries. Many parents are like this, not just my parents. People don't take into account social norms and their childrens dignity. I don't agree with spending crazy money on kids clothes (I am a huge tottini fan), but I will not shop for my kids in old navy, because they will feel nebach and different, even if that means spending a bit more (I still buy Jewish stores on sale).

Your parents were likely emotionally abusive and neglectful in other ways as well. This is not a normal way to act. I’m so sorry you had to go through this. It’s terribly painful.

(But I do buy in old navy. I didn’t realize that’s a nebach store. But you do you, shop wherever makes you feel good. I’m happy for you that you can.)

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 7:43 am

amother Ebony wrote:

You know something? This post is a humble brag. You can spend the money , but you won’t because it’s not classy. Why don’t you write this under your screen name ?