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OceanRider
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 Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:49 am
Those who consider poor people a “moral failure” are a moral failure themselves. They apparently have no idea what the definition of morals is, which has zero to do with money.
How rude!
My personal opinion is that it’s not a rule that the wise are those who have the bread and not the fools who lack financial security.
And so there’s nothing to judge for heaven’s sake.
Last edited by OceanRider on Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Fern
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:56 am
| amother NeonYellow wrote: | I am from a community where that is a normal/good salary. I always gape in wonder at the standards of normal on here. One "needs" $300,000 a year to live. That's not what I see in my life. Where I live, people don't make a lot of money. So many people get tuition breaks. So many people get government assistance and are on Medicaid. It's not such a shameful thing for me in my real life. People are always looking to save some money or get a quality item for less. People love getting bags of hand me downs. These things are not shameful. And that is one of the big things I love about where I live.
My husband and I make around $80,000 a year and we are happy and satisfied and have what we need! |
We were okay on $30,000 for years. Now that our tuition exceeds your annual income, that doesn't work anymore.
And once you make that much, you need to pay for health, food, etc. out of pocket. No more food stamps, HEAP, or free health insurance. And income tax becomes an actual thing instead of an automatic refund.
At a certain point hand me downs were no longer sufficient, especially for the older children. Marks and Spencer's is a good price, but not free for boys pants and shirts. Target has $30 boys suit jackets, but they cost $30 plus taxes of post tax income. Even Walmart shoes cost money.
Our standard of living has barely budged. We're still renting, wearing cheap clothes, and using old furniture. But our needed income has multiplied by a lot.
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paperflowers
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:12 am
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It’s a Calvinist idea that wealth is an indicator of moral standing. The people criticizing you are wrong.
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ShishKabob
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 12:14 pm
| OceanRider wrote: | Those who consider poor people a “moral failure” are a moral failure themselves. They apparently have no idea what the definition of morals is, which has zero to do with money.
How rude!
My personal opinion is that it’s not a rule that the wise are those who have the bread and not the fools who lack financial security.
And so there’s nothing to judge for heaven’s sake. | This!
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Chickensoupprof
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 12:50 pm
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100K a year in the Netherlands means you are pretty rich... It is basically what a dentist makes here, my GP makes less than 100K a year...
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Ema of 5
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 12:53 pm
| amother OP wrote: | I'm really wondering.
Because some of the people in my world consider poor middle class a moral failure.
Between my husband's ft job and my 3/4 time job, we barely scrape 100k. Which is more than the national median.
I get a lot of criticism and judgement from people.
And it makes me wonder.
Do you feel like poorer people are lazy? Not trying hard enough? Stupid?
I'm not talking about people who choose kollel. That's a different conversation. |
I don’t think anything because I have no idea what’s in anyone else’s wallet or bank account. It’s not my business. How a person spends or doesn’t is not necessarily an indication of what they have or DONT have.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 12:55 pm
| Chickensoupprof wrote: | | 100K a year in the Netherlands means you are pretty rich... It is basically what a dentist makes here, my GP makes less than 100K a year... |
We pay 12k a year in health insurance, 20k in tuition (for 5 kids. Deducted, but...), 24k in mortgage housing (a really good mortgage on an old small house). That leaves me 44k a year for taxes, food, clothing, utilities, phones, cars, gas, and insurance for the commute, daycamps, Yom Tov.
It's tight. We're poor. Just the government doesn't think so.
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Chickensoupprof
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 12:56 pm
| paperflowers wrote: | | It’s a Calvinist idea that wealth is an indicator of moral standing. The people criticizing you are wrong. |
Meh, Max Weber (who made the connection between wealth and Calvinism) claimed that to the ascetic life of Calvinists (hard, rational and systematic work, but not allowed to enjoy the money earned) a lot of profit was made, which in turn could be used to invest in new activities. Moreover, in view of their religious obligation to work hard, workers could easily be exploited. Weber thus saw a connection between Protestantism and capitalism. Weber admired the Calvinist capitalist spirit.
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Chickensoupprof
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:07 pm
| amother OP wrote: | We pay 12k a year in health insurance, 20k in tuition (for 5 kids. Deducted, but...), 24k in mortgage housing (a really good mortgage on an old small house). That leaves me 44k a year for taxes, food, clothing, utilities, phones, cars, gas, and insurance for the commute, daycamps, Yom Tov.
It's tight. We're poor. Just the government doesn't think so. |
Ok, we pay 4000 a year for health insurance children under 18 are free of charge. We don't have a mortgage, and we don't have kids in school but if we pay only for Kodesh it won't be 20k at all.
Food is expensive when you are Jewish. But I get it because I spoke about this with my husband who lived in the States, I'm just being really European I see.
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mha3484
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:16 pm
I don't think making under 100k is a moral failure and anyone thinks that is gross. We make under 100k. A lot under.
But to play devils advocate.
I think there are groups within frum and secular society that have ideas about personal responsibility and living in your means. They feel they have to seek out high paying professions in order to support a mid to large size family. They feel like if I want to have 6 kids and pay for everything I better go to law school, or med school, or get my cpa or whatever else can bring in a six figure salary. I think some people are just really practical and see the world from that lens. They cant understand supporting a a family of 8 with a job that only pays 50-80k. So if they cant understand for their own self they project it on to you.
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cupcake123
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Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:18 pm
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Whoever thinks that had a serious lack of emunah.
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