Does money belong to the husband?

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Forum -> Household Management -> Finances

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Alternative

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 12:52 am

I don’t understand how it can make a man feel manly and supportive to control the money his wife makes.
I mean his wife made the money! How manly is it then to hand it to her benevolently?
And how would a woman feel taken care of, by working hard and then having that money given to her as a favor by her husband?
So twisted. Yes maybe it worked millenia ago when women didn’t work at all and needed a man to survive. Not today.
Op- I simply would not agree.
On the other hand, you both need to jointly agree how much of each of your salaries goes into discretionary spending.

amother

Sage

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 1:21 am

I'm so sorry to sound so painful. To put in perspective I've been to stay at home mom for over 20 years. My husband makes the money but I pay all the bills and run the house. In fact my husband doesn't even know what the credit card bill statement says. I go over all the credit card bills and make sure that money was transferred to the correct account to pay it. I never asked him for money and he doesn't question my spending habits. When it comes to making a big purchase of one item over maybe $500 we would talk to each other. But he would also talk to me. Like if we're buying a new piece of furniture or a car or a trip that's definitely something we talk together and make sure that it fits into our budget. I've never once had asked my husband for money ever. In fact I'm the one that goes out of the house since he works from home so he's usually asking me for the cash at least. Or even where the credit card is. He recognizes that yes he may be earning the money but I am doing a ton to run the house and he really appreciates that and sees us as equals when it comes to that. And I certainly respect him a lot for bringing in the income. And when he wants to make a purchase that's bigger then I think it was not necessary I always say he should go for it that he works very hard.

amother

Bluebell

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 4:56 am

We also share bank accounts. My husband used to earn more, now I earn more, but we consider all the money we bring in family money. We also work together.

Its a red flag that your husband is getting angry, as you say.

Now, maybe you are spending $1000 on manicures, spa days or rare books while there is no food in the fridge.

But otherwise its a not a healthy relationship where either spouse is questioning small purcahses.

I saw an excellent suggestion once where each spouse sets aside a certain amount of money each month, this can be in a seperate bank account, and they can spend it how they wish. Sume obviously depends on your income. If your marriage is otherwise good perhaps you can pursue this route.

But definitely look up financial abuse, and consider if this is the case. It may very well not be. I have definitely not been happy in the past with financial decisions my husband has made and I have expressed it. Now we agree that any big purchases are discussed.

amother

Leaf

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 6:08 am

We have a joint account for my dh's wage and benefits.
We both have cards for that account and spend as we need.

I also have a separate account with my money in, but I use it mostly for clothing, shoes etc and for extras that we need around the house, for the kids and I don't need to ask him before making purchases.

You need to work out a better system op.

amother

Peony

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 6:35 am

amother Sage wrote:

This is how it was with my parents. My mother was sahm, but part of her responsibilities were the finances. I don't think this is so rare. They made decisions on big purchases together (of course! Um always surprised when u hear not) but really my father had to check with my mo5her on what they could afford.

My husband takes care of finances as this is one of his "chores" in our household division of labour. Don't worry - he makes sure I hear about the big cc bills! We discuss any big discretionary purchase together.

Fwiw, it's very clear from her biography that rebb kanievsky ran the finances in her home.

amother

Peony

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 6:52 am

amother Birch wrote:

It is neither fair nor appropriate to "suspect him of being abusive" because he wants to do something that is actually within halacha. Can't Believe It

The halacha is that money the wife earns belongs to the husband, because the responsibility to provide money for the household is also on the husband.

As an earlier poster said, that is not the only arrangement. The wife can choose to keep her money and to split all household bills in half. (Although the first arrangement is the default arrangement and the recommended one.)

There is definitely room for the husband to be flexible here and let things stay at status quo. If he asked a Rav, perhaps the Rav would recommend that he do just that.

But to play devil's advocate here:
What if dh was skimming off his paycheck before pooling his money with his wife's, without even discussing it with her first?
I wonder how many ladies here would be totally ok with that.

OP and her husband need to communicate and decide upon a setup that works for both of them. Perhaps also speak to a Rav for guidance (not just straight halacha), as an earlier poster had suggested.

Why are you slapping your head? Just because a husband might technically own the money (not even 100% clear when a woman working alot) does not mean that being super controlling of the wife's spending is a "halachically" appropriate way to behave.

Behaving that way when the wife is against it is alarming.

This does not mean a couple can't CHOOSE to do things that way, but it's not from "halacha". [For example, a couple might think this is the best way to not overspend, if they both agree then it's ok].

Now op, have you has any problematic overspending habits that have alarmed your husband?

Either way, go to a rav to discuss and knock some sense into your husband.

amother

Peony

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 7:24 am

Op, I'm reading this again and confused.

Is your husband upset that you want to be able to purchase normal things your income can allow without running it past him?

Or is he upset that you want your own account where you deposit the money budgeted for your "treats", aka discretionary funds. And he doesn't like that that account is outside his control?

Or something else.

amother

Copper

Fri, Jan 27 2023, 1:18 pm

amother OP wrote:

I work hard and make some money. Obviously most of it goes into our shared bank account and is for my husband and family to use.

But I do like to put away some money for myself so I can spend on some personal stuff without giving an exact report to my husband after every purchase.

My husband is very upset and keeps saying that in “normal” families, and according to Halacha, the money belongs to the husband and whenever I need anything I can ask him for money and he’ll always give me. He also offered to give me “pocket money”.

Maybe I’m wrong but I’m mad. I’m not his daughter who has to ask for money whenever I want to buy something. It makes me feel like a kid, like his object, he is my boss and I’m his employee or something.

Is this Halacha? I won’t follow it.
Is this truly the norm?

there is also halacha that the husband treat the wife bekavod.
If the scenario is like you describe it, your husband is treating you like a 2 year old who gives permission for someone to play with his legos..
On the other hand, a lot of women unconciously treat their husband as an object too... They feel useless in the home...especially when the woman makes all the decisions and is also the breadwinner....

Trademark

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 2:26 pm

amother Birch wrote:

I have to add, I'm still figuring out this issue in my own household. I'm not 100% comfortable with my husband's and my setup either. I need to speak to a Rav or a therapist or a marriage coach myself. I actually feel similar to OP - thanks, OP for articulating my feelings better than I did.

I think the idea in the default halachik setup is that the wife feel taken care of, and that she trust her husband to give her what she needs. In the ideal scenario, the husband would feel obligated and responsible and manly and empowered by providing abundantly for his wife - which includes managing their joint earnings competently.
The wife - if she trusts that her husband is competent and that he wants to give her as much as he possibly can - will feel taken care of and secure.

It's easy to say, but there's a lot of fear for me personally in jumping to such an arrangement.
So right now I'm somewhere in the middle. And part of my current arrangement does not sit well with me. ...I definitely need to work this out.

I don't think that was necessarily the idea behind the set-up.

Back in the days a woman was much more dependent on her husband or father and much more vulnerable. Think of all the stories where single women were snatched etc. Most of the times she couldn't provide for herself. Eretz Yisroel was an agricultural society. Men had to plow the fields, cut wood for heating etc. Such an arrangement was very advantageous to a woman. It was practical.

Nowadays women are not financially nor physically dependent on men. We live in a different reality.

amother

Lemonlime

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:00 pm

Only read op. But you are dealing with 3 separate issues, not one.

Technically since the dh buys the dw so to speak he owns you and your money. That's the part of learning gemara, not irl practicality.

Thats neither here nor there because he has an obligation to support you, whatever you do is extra.

Your real issue is the division of who takes care of what in your marriage & household. Its best if the two of you can get on the same page and not let it become a sticking point.

If you said its my money, that can really hurt his feelings like you aren't out for your family and have a bit much selfishness feelings. If he said its my job to support, whatever you earn you keep separate and do with as you please, it would work.

He might want to feel you are in it with him. Or if he is the one who pays the bills and budgets he may feel slighted because you aren't rolling in dough.

Or maybe he is incredibly responsible and has only seen money done together.

Or maybe he thinks you have different values where money should go than him.

Or maybe you are frivolous with money in his eyes.

Or maybe 101 things.

But the best thing is for the 2 of you to work out whats underlying this topic for the two of you and find a way that works best for you as a couple.

A therapist or rav is not a bad idea.

Don't let this fester.

amother

Lightgray

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:26 pm

I have the same issue as op but worse... I'm very sad he makes me ask for money all the time. But like any tiny amount. Sometimes he puts some cash into my account but always very minimal amount. Every spending is accounted for. He does most of the shopping, he's good at it and I'm happy he can at least have one chore that he's good at and does nicely (there's not much other help I get from him) but sometimes I wish I can also go shopping but then there's no cash for me... I find it very hard. I don't know if he's doing it because of 'halachik' although he has mentioned it in the past. I don't want to call him controlling because I still love him but he's running low of excuses for me..

amother

Vanilla

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:54 pm

amother Lightgray wrote:

He can call it whatever he wants but there's no halacha that the husband controls all of the money and doesn't leave any for the wife. The halacha is that he has to support you. If he doesn't understand the halacha correctly then you can insist on going together to a rav and getting clarity. Please don't let him hurt you like this.

amother

Skyblue

Tue, Jan 31 2023, 8:34 pm

Even if he owns it (even if, like if she doesn’t work at all or in old times etc) then you still control all your belongings EQUALLY.
ישלטו בנכסיהם שווה בשווה
That is what was written in your contract, show it to him, it’s in the tenaim which literally means “conditions”.
Control equally does not mean that he gives you money. Nope.

And as mentioned upthread in our times it’s anyway done differently.

OP, ask dh if after 120 it’s ok with him that only your brothers get a share in your parents inheritance, I have a feeling he will fight for your share tooth and nail, and rightfully so, because in our times daughters do inherit and people just make sure to have a halachic will which makes sure of that.

I don’t earn a dime and still dh will not make any substantial financial decision without me, and we have equal control on all money.

amother

White

Tue, Jan 31 2023, 8:52 pm

amother Lemonlime wrote:

The dh does NOT buy the dw. Not even in the Gemara. Just saying.

amother

White

Tue, Jan 31 2023, 8:55 pm

amother Lightgray wrote:

This is controlling and not OK. He’s using halacha as an excuse. It is not the reason. You need to renegotiate the parameters of your marriage, with a professional, if necessary. There’s no reason for you to continue to live like this.

amother

Skyblue

Tue, Jan 31 2023, 9:00 pm

amother White wrote:

The dh does NOT buy the dw. Not even in the Gemara. Just saying.

Exactly, he doesn’t buy her. He “buys” the rights for אישות intimacy with her while also obligating himself to be intimate with her at the same time.

amother

Skyblue

Tue, Jan 31 2023, 9:01 pm

amother White wrote:

Agree, OP arrange a meeting with him at a Rav to clarify.

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