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Would you stop keeping CY because of money?
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amother
Daylily


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 8:10 am
My husband and I decided to take on CY after we got married.

Our rav said to make sure that we take it on bli neder, that it's a chumra, not halacha. But he encouraged us to do it. Just said that if we're ever in a situation where it's very difficult, we shouldn't have a problem stopping.

It's not so black and white.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 8:19 am
amother OP wrote:
We eat a lot of cereal and milk. Probably go through about $40 a week in milk alone.
We started cutting back on yogurts but still find dinners with cheese to be cheaper than those with chicken.

amother OP wrote:
1- our rav doesn’t hold that we would need to kasher. We use cholov stam formula in our sinks.
2- it’s not so easily accessible. There are times I have to go to 3 stores or go shopping at a specific day and time to get milk. My out of town city isn’t great in this regard. I have considered stopping for that alone (the aggravation and time that it takes to find milk especially at certain times of year).

Wow, we were in a very very similar situation, but CY milk was literally $7 where we lived and when it came in, it was often already spoiled.

In our situation, to make it even harder, my stepson was living with us, and we were newly married and newly blended obviously, and he was 10 and he felt his cereal needed to be floating in milk, which he would then dump out when the cereal was gone (as opposed to drinking the milk). Like, he poured a full bowl of milk for his small amount of cereal. It was causing a lot of tension. We needed to eliminate that tension.

We were broke. Like, BROKE. So we spoke to our rav who also holds like yours. He said in America, organic milk undergoes suck careful and specific regulation that we are sure it is 100% cows milk, so in our situation we should buy organic for $3.50 and not CY for $7. When we moved to a city with CY milk at a normal price, we went back to buying only CY milk.

But I want to add - we never stopped keeping CY, just the milk was not CY. We never bought anything else that was dairy unless it was CY, as there was no need to. The financial and shalom bayis issue for us was the milk (and to a lesser extent, CY cheese which was also expensive where we were, but we managed), so the only thing we changed was the milk, and just for that time.
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PSmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 8:35 am
amother Lotus wrote:
When I had extra Wic milk I sent coolers of it to my relatives out of town Smile if you have extra then ask around, I’m sure there are people with out of town relatives who would gladly take it.


Omg that is such a great idea! BH I have lots of extra CY milk from WIC because we don't drink it a lot.

OP, maybe I can send you some from Brooklyn.
If you want, I you can PM me.
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amother
Mulberry


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 8:49 am
No. You don’t lose out by doing the right thing. If you switch to non CY you won’t feel like you have any more money then you do now.

Also idk where you kids go to school but in town schools don’t let non CY items. So that wouldn’t stop that.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 9:07 am
amother Mulberry wrote:
No. You don’t lose out by doing the right thing. If you switch to non CY you won’t feel like you have any more money then you do now.

Also idk where you kids go to school but in town schools don’t let non CY items. So that wouldn’t stop that.


That’s right and that’s why if her rav says to not keep cy she shouldn’t!
That is doing the correct thing.
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Highstrung




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 9:08 am
amother Mulberry wrote:
No. You don’t lose out by doing the right thing. If you switch to non CY you won’t feel like you have any more money then you do now.

Also idk where you kids go to school but in town schools don’t let non CY items. So that wouldn’t stop that.

How do you know what doing the right thing is in this situation? If her rav advised her to switch then doing the right thing is listening to a rav’s psak. That’s what it means to follow daas torah.
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amother
Mulberry


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 9:09 am
amother Mauve wrote:
That’s right and that’s why if her rav says to not keep cy she shouldn’t!
That is doing the correct thing.


I didn’t read 6 pages of comments. I just answered original question. So yeah of course listening to the Rav is the right thing
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 9:42 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
Regular milk isn't that expensive. Why should the government step in?
Special milk has a higher price, whether it's lactose free, an organic line, or CY.
The costs to produce CY are higher than CS and shipping in small quantities to out of town communities adds to the price per bottle.

For those asking about gallons, I've seen. But even when I lived somewhere where both were available, I bought the half gallons because 2 of those were cheaper than 1 gallon! (WIC markup I presume)
It was also easier to pour.
And since it's very easy for certain brands to spoil, it makes sense to me that half gallons are a better option so the milk isn't open as long.

As long as the price on basic staples are low there is not issue for anyone.
Eggs is seen as a a very basic staple IMHO.
You BET there will be lots of lamenting on imamother around Pesach complaining about the cost!
In Israel we have a max.price for eggs.
Seems the US government don't import eggs from other countries either (In Israel we have import before Pesach)
Food in Israel was always more expensive. Not anymore.
Eggs
Someone mentioned Materna and diapers.
Something is *very wrong*.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 9:48 am
I keep Cy but can understand you op.

There is an area in my life that for various reasons considered lowering my standards. However, thinking about it. For my child's chinuch I don't think it's worth it. A yid has to be strong even when faced with challenge. My grandparent quit their jobs as not to work on shabbat. Hashem helped them provide for their family.

However, for those that say to cut our milk altogether. I understand op too as a mother of young kids. My kids eat cereal and milk because they like it, and it's very easy in the morning rush. I don't think cutting out milk is the answer either.

If I had a Toddler under the age of understanding if a rat would let I would ask if I could give just that toddler cs milk.

Could you cut something out of your non food budget Instead of milk? If not I think you should rather take extra tzadaka. Peach is coming up. How will you make pesach? Will you cut down on everything then too?

Kids have to eat normal. Otherwise they can become obsessed over food. Please get help with your grocery bills.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 10:14 am
The Problem is that many Dairy Cows have their abdomens punctured, rendering them unkosher and because these animals have lost their kosher status, their milk is no longer kosher. Once a kosher animal has an organ punctured, it is no longer kosher. So for all of you saying Rav Moshe permitted Chalav Stam, I wonder what he would say now, that such an issue of the dairy cows, who lost their status as kosher?? Even if it is a minority. From what I read, it seems to be a major problem in the dairy industry.
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amother
Camellia


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 10:24 am
I used to keep CY exclusively, but I stopped a couple years ago for a variety of reasons (caveat--my keilim are still strictly CY for community reasons)

I can't say I did it due to $. I don't judge anyone who does, especially right now. But I did consider that at times, and that ultimately wasn't relevant when I made my decision.

So, first, I live OOT.

What motivated me was that for a variety of reasons beyond my direct control, my social circle changed. My synagogue changed. It was extremely socially isolating to be strict on CY including keilim. I have no family of origin locally or who keeps kosher either. I couldn't eat food at kiddush or many other shul activities. I couldn't eat at many friend's homes. I grew resentful of frumkeit and increasingly depressed. So, I made a change for self preservation and to get to a mental/emotional/social place that I could thrive in...and my teens had already made their personal decisions, so I also felt like I wasn't influencing that one way or another.

And my "old friends" and acquaintances, and former congregation needed to be left for my self preservation and for me to thrive after a decade of being divorced and increasingly miserable and marginalized.

Separately, my HS aged children had already decided to not be strict with CY when out and about, and I got remarried to a man not strict with CY and who is a vegetarian. So, we now eat not only CY dairy, but I have kept my keilim in my kitchen CY only....as it was, we mostly ate dairy on disposables anyways.

Is my reasoning "better"? I don't know. All I know is my reasoning was NOT based on money and I wasn't facing an issue of providing for my children the dairy they needed, etc.
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Miri1




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 11:18 am
Chickensoupprof wrote:
Where I live there is no CY. I love plain yogurt or quark as a snack but I never buy it because no CY. I buy it from Antwerp or Amsterdam and it costs a fortune.
The wife of our Rav tells me her husband allows us to eat cholov akum because we are living here and can't get CY. Yet I buy UHT milk, CY and hard cheese are also CY. DH buys American snacks with OU-D but I never like these snacks.


Just want to point out that generally when a rav allows this it is referred to as chalav stam rather than chalav akum.

This is why we're seeing such different opinions - because some Rabbanim hold of the status of chalav stam, and some don't (and that's why some will kasher their utensils, and others don't).

(edited for clarity)
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:21 pm
amother Rose wrote:
The Problem is that many Dairy Cows have their abdomens punctured, rendering them unkosher and because these animals have lost their kosher status, their milk is no longer kosher. Once a kosher animal has an organ punctured, it is no longer kosher. So for all of you saying Rav Moshe permitted Chalav Stam, I wonder what he would say now, that such an issue of the dairy cows, who lost their status as kosher?? Even if it is a minority. From what I read, it seems to be a major problem in the dairy industry.

Rav Hershel Schachter holds like that and says that people should avoid chalav stam even if they would otherwise use chalav stam
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amother
Grape


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:26 pm
amother Seafoam wrote:
Rav Hershel Schachter holds like that and says that people should avoid chalav stam even if they would otherwise use chalav stam


Even Chalav Stam with an OU? My children eat Chalav Stam, we were "matir neder" for them when we moved OOT, as per the guidance of our Rosh Yeshiva, but we only buy milk and dairy products with a hechsher, we wouldn't buy milk with no hasgacha.
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seven-up




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:32 pm
I didn't read through every post so I don't know if this was mentioned. I'm not a rav and of course every situation is different. But Chalav Yisroel is such an important mitzvah that many in America take lightly since R' Moshe gave a heter to use chalav stam in the 1950's when it wasn't readily available. Heterim are given based on the situation which is why a rav should be consulted before relying on a heter. My husband's r"y holds the heter does not apply to mainstream communities anymore where CY is readily available but in OOT communities where it is only shipped in a few times a week and is so expensive there may be room for leniency.

That being said, my niece never kept cy but then she started considering it. She couldn't wrap her head around the difference in price which is what kept her from making the leap. What was ironic was that she and her husband are in a much higher financial bracket than we are which she admits but I wouldn't call them uber wealthy, just very comfortable. So here we were keeping cy and in general a higher level of kashrus like only heimishe brands, only pas yisroel, those kind of things and she was saving tons buying national brands. I eventually convinced her to try it for a few months (she was also worried about giving up certain comfort foods) and lo and behold she can't understand why but keeping cy has not made a dent financially! The deal breaker for her was when her rav told her that eating cy helps a person attain more yiras shamayim. I don't know the source but her rav told her the source.

So if there's anyway around it maybe try to hold on to cy even if given a heter to eat cs or at least whenever possible because I truly believe that Hashem gives the money to pay for mitzvos if we look closely enough!
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amother
DarkCyan


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:49 pm
amother Grape wrote:
Even Chalav Stam with an OU? My children eat Chalav Stam, we were "matir neder" for them when we moved OOT, as per the guidance of our Rosh Yeshiva, but we only buy milk and dairy products with a hechsher, we wouldn't buy milk with no hasgacha.

OU says that for various reasons they give their hechsher even though there are likely DA cows in the herd. So if that is Rabbi Schachter's reasoning, OU milk would still be a problem.

OU holds that plain milk doesn't need a hechsher at all.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:55 pm
singleagain wrote:
We can sell both half gallon and whole gallons of CY milk through WIC and get that money back. Honestly, anyone can look it up on the WIC site and see what the max cost is.

It is divided into peer groups of size of supermarkets. So all supermarkets of a certain size can sell them for x amount and all supermarkets of a bigger size can sell it for y amount.

And if we want to take sell something for more than the allotted amount then we have to take it off WIC. Which if the half gallon is done like that it sounds like that's what the store decided.

Why not look it up on your states WIC website and then ask the manager?

This was 10-20 years ago.
I don't really care enough. 😉
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:58 pm
Bnei Berak 10 wrote:
As long as the price on basic staples are low there is not issue for anyone.
Eggs is seen as a a very basic staple IMHO.
You BET there will be lots of lamenting on imamother around Pesach complaining about the cost!
In Israel we have a max.price for eggs.
Seems the US government don't import eggs from other countries either (In Israel we have import before Pesach)
Food in Israel was always more expensive. Not anymore.
Eggs
Someone mentioned Materna and diapers.
Something is *very wrong*.

I'm curious what will happen with eggs. There was just a fire that killed 100,000 egg producing chickens.
Never bought formula in my life and I don't think diapers are more expensive than in Israel.
But milk in the US is not through the roof. It's specifically CY and specifically in some cities that it's high.
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 1:16 pm
amother Grape wrote:
Even Chalav Stam with an OU? My children eat Chalav Stam, we were "matir neder" for them when we moved OOT, as per the guidance of our Rosh Yeshiva, but we only buy milk and dairy products with a hechsher, we wouldn't buy milk with no hasgacha.

I’m not a rav, so don’t know the ins and outs and he claims that the OU rely on an old psak that the non kosher milk is Batul in the kosher milk, but he says that the psak is outdated and the problem of non kosher cows is more prevalent now so it’s no longer batul.
He also says that many rabanim are unaware of this issue and he tried to bring awareness to the OU.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Jan 30 2023, 1:58 pm
Thank you everyone for your perspectives, you helped me at least understand my husband’s views even though I still don’t agree with him.
I agree that if we had the money in our account we should continue but when the money is mamash not there , I really think this is the only thing left to give up on.
I am not going to stop the kids from eating cereal and milk , especially when I know that our meals are lacking and not particularly satisfying as much as I try on a shoestring budget.
As for those who asked what we eat on Pesach, no we aren’t talking about throwing out kashrus because we can’t afford it. Our plan is to eat a lot of potatoes since this year eggs are not in the budget. We get 2-4 packages of chicken from the kosher food pantry and a little bit of gefilte fish and that will have to be enough. We will probably have a lot of vegetable dishes. Pesach everyone is always hungry 😢.
Sometimes we get invited out.
Anyways, we have almost 2 months to worry about that.
Our plan for breaking this poverty cycle: first of all birth control- I lost my income with my last pregnancy when I was put on bed rest and then baby was born very early and in Nicu for several months so we had a year of crazy expenses and no income . We are still catching up from those expenses although I have been back to work for a year or so now.
My husband is no longer full time learning in kollel and has been trying different jobs although ironically he isn’t bringing in much more than the kollel stipend was but hopefully that will change.
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