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-> Household Management
-> Finances
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amother
DarkCyan
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 Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:14 am
| Ema of 5 wrote: | | How can it be lowering standards when this was not part of the original standard? It only became the standard when the integrity of the supply line couldn’t be trusted. |
That's a funny argument. Muktza only became a problem when Yidden became bad at keeping Shabbos. Not following halachos of muktza would certainly be lowering standards. And there are numerous examples of gedarim and takanos that would be similar.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:33 am
| amother OP wrote: | | Every half gallon is close to $5. |
This thread makes me so so sad.
I live in israel
Basic staples have a max. price that government sets like milk bread eggs sugar salt cheese.
USD 5 would be 9.20 NIS for one liter( 3% milk in plastic bag)
I pay 4.41 NIS for that milk bag in my grocery (with discount)
Something is very very wrong.
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Chickensoupprof
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:54 am
| Bnei Berak 10 wrote: | This thread makes me so so sad.
I live in israel
Basic staples have a max. price that government sets like milk bread eggs sugar salt cheese.
USD 5 would be 9.20 NIS for one liter( 3% milk in plastic bag)
I pay 4.41 NIS for that milk bag in my grocery (with discount)
Something is very very wrong. |
The US be like: We have freedom and it is communist to have max prices on basic groceries.
Ok in my neck of the woods: I pay for UHT milk CY 6 cartons of 1 liter 10.40 euro which is 39,34 NIS and 11,32 dollar
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amother
Goldenrod
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:01 am
| Chickensoupprof wrote: | Where I live there is no CY. I love plain yogurt or quark as a snack but I never buy it because no CY. I buy it from Antwerp or Amsterdam and it costs a fortune.
The wife of our Rav tells me her husband allows us to eat cholov akum because we are living here and can't get CY. Yet I buy UHT milk, CY and hard cheese are also CY. DH buys American snacks with OU-D but I never like these snacks. |
CY heter was specifically american and not European, we eat chalav stam, but we dont when we are in Europe, per our kashrus knowledgeable Rav.
I would ask your rav directly if it is ok to by European Chalav akum for all products. I also know that certain products are not commonly made from non- kosher milk and those are more likley to be given a kulah for (butter for example).
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Chickensoupprof
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:15 am
| amother Goldenrod wrote: | CY heter was specifically american and not European, we eat chalav stam, but we dont when we are in Europe, per our kashrus knowledgeable Rav.
I would ask your rav directly if it is ok to by European Chalav akum for all products. I also know that certain products are not commonly made from non- kosher milk and those are more likley to be given a kulah for (butter for example). |
Our Rav is in Amsterdam, Netherlands, Europe, (weird right? Who would have thought there are rabbonim outside NY/NJ or Israel?) . The chief rabbinate says outside Amsterdam says in the luach I have next to me now: ''If there is no milk available which is under the supervision of the rabbinate you can buy the following milk and dairy products'' with a whole list! Oh do I live in Amsterdam? No. Do I live in in Amstelveen? No. I live 1,5 hour away... So maybe our Daas Torah can ahve a point that he is meikel to us but not if we would have lived next door.
Lots of frum yekkishe Jews who wear borselino's, have semicha or are ashkans are eating chalov stam in the Netherlands. Some don't but I know the families who do. Tbh cheese is the issue everyone here has CY cheese. I don't know where they got the heter from, I've heard that it was even back in the day a Dutch thing and it continued to be this way. I only know about few rabbi's and ashkanim who are holding this way. Ask them. Not me.
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amother
DarkRed
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:16 am
| amother Goldenrod wrote: | CY heter was specifically american and not European, we eat chalav stam, but we dont when we are in Europe, per our kashrus knowledgeable Rav.
I would ask your rav directly if it is ok to by European Chalav akum for all products. I also know that certain products are not commonly made from non- kosher milk and those are more likley to be given a kulah for (butter for example). |
Europe is not as backwards as you think it is. Most countries have the same milk laws as America.
As per KLBD:
| Quote: | | Since it is not possible to distinguish kosher milk (from a kosher animal) from non kosher milk, Rabbinical law requires that it be supervised from the point of milking until it is bottled. In countries where the source of milk offered for sale is guaranteed by civil law (such as the UK), some authorities rule that all milk is guaranteed as kosher and need not be supervised. Supervised kosher milk (Chalav Yisrael) is widely available nowadays in the major centres of Jewish life. |
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amother
DarkRed
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:18 am
Op, let’s sum it up.
You live OOT
Kosher milk is very expensive and hard to get
Your kids have allergies
You are on food stamps already
Money is super tight
Your rav said ok
You were Matir neder
I really think you know you can do it. If your dh wants to be strict on himself kol hakavod but please get the milk needed for your children.
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Chickensoupprof
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:19 am
Lol  people still think sometimes that we use a wagon pulled by a horse or a donkey instead of a car. Oh, and we have of course no freedom.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:40 am
| Chickensoupprof wrote: | The US be like: We have freedom and it is communist to have max prices on basic groceries.
Ok in my neck of the woods: I pay for UHT milk CY 6 cartons of 1 liter 10.40 euro which is 39,34 NIS and 11,32 dollar |
Well then I prefer being "communist" in this specific matter 
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amother
Goldenrod
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:41 am
| Chickensoupprof wrote: | Our Rav is in Amsterdam, Netherlands, Europe, (weird right? Who would have thought there are rabbonim outside NY/NJ or Israel?) . The chief rabbinate says outside Amsterdam says in the luach I have next to me now: ''If there is no milk available which is under the supervision of the rabbinate you can buy the following milk and dairy products'' with a whole list! Oh do I live in Amsterdam? No. Do I live in in Amstelveen? No. I live 1,5 hour away... So maybe our Daas Torah can ahve a point that he is meikel to us but not if we would have lived next door.
Lots of frum yekkishe Jews who wear borselino's, have semicha or are ashkans are eating chalov stam in the Netherlands. Some don't but I know the families who do. Tbh cheese is the issue everyone here has CY cheese. I don't know where they got the heter from, I've heard that it was even back in the day a Dutch thing and it continued to be this way. I only know about few rabbi's and ashkanim who are holding this way. Ask them. Not me. |
Before we derail this thread (maybe we should start a spinnoff)
Chalav Stam is American concept coined by Rav Moshe, not as kulah, but as a way of relying on the FDA's regulation. I know Rabbi Ralbag applied this idea to the Netherlands, and other western European countries have adopted the reasoning, but there is know one who is as broad as rav moshe who applied this ruling in europe, its more individual rabbinates/ rabbanim in each area.
Then there is chalav akum. There are heterim for chalav akum, which are not lechatchila, but are probably necessary in certain circumstances (lack of accessibility/high expense)
When we go to europe, on vacation, we don't NEED to have those products, so we prefer to stick with the lechatchila view, although we will still eat OUD products from the states that we bring wit us.
There is a large yekkish minhag of eating dairy chalov akum prodcuts, not milk - butter, ice cream, soft cheeses, yogurts, because it is very hard to make these products from trief milk.
Hard cheese are the most problematic kashrus whise (because of rennet). I have heard that before the war, there where certain kinds of chesses that where made in acceptable ways, but I do not know that that can be applied across the board anymore, there are usually lists of specific products with supervision or investigation into how they are made.
There is a big difference between a country like the Netherlands and an eastern european country like - Romania. The more regulated the industries the less issues there are.
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Bnei Berak 10
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:41 am
From what I have understood is that American laws in this matter are just very very strict.
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amother
OP
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:57 am
| Bnei Berak 10 wrote: | | Well then I prefer being "communist" in this specific matter |
Agree. We started off in E”Y. At least we never had to worry about tuition, medical care, or basics. We didn’t have a lot of money but we probably had less worries than we did here . We didn’t need a car , my kids didn’t feel like nebachs for wearing hand me downs, etc.
maon was subsidized, we had a proper maternity leave.
The biggest challenge was family , DH’s elderly parents living here, all my family, missing family members weddings.
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amother
Wallflower
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 6:25 am
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Rav Moshe Feinstein's heter applies only to the US, so I think location would have to factor in to the decision.
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amother
Broom
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:34 am
I am chabad so we are very strict about this.
Maybe talk to a Rav about it, but it sounds like an easy answer is to buy cs milk and yogurts for your kids but carry on buying cy products for family meals.
Apart from that I live OOT (in Europe) and the array of non dairy milks, yogurts and desserts and even cheese available now are astounding. And really great as well. But not necesarily cheaper than CY products! If I buy store brand non dairy milks they are, but not the branded products like califa farms or alpro. We buy them because a. easier to get b. can eat after a fleishig meal not because of price.
I have to say, I would be a tiny bit wary of so called government regulations after the horse meat scandal in Europe a few years ago...but I am not a kashrus expert.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:37 am
| Bnei Berak 10 wrote: | This thread makes me so so sad.
I live in israel
Basic staples have a max. price that government sets like milk bread eggs sugar salt cheese.
USD 5 would be 9.20 NIS for one liter( 3% milk in plastic bag)
I pay 4.41 NIS for that milk bag in my grocery (with discount)
Something is very very wrong. |
Regular milk isn't that expensive. Why should the government step in?
Special milk has a higher price, whether it's lactose free, an organic line, or CY.
The costs to produce CY are higher than CS and shipping in small quantities to out of town communities adds to the price per bottle.
For those asking about gallons, I've seen. But even when I lived somewhere where both were available, I bought the half gallons because 2 of those were cheaper than 1 gallon! (WIC markup I presume)
It was also easier to pour.
And since it's very easy for certain brands to spoil, it makes sense to me that half gallons are a better option so the milk isn't open as long.
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amother
Eggshell
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:38 am
| Chickensoupprof wrote: | The US be like: We have freedom and it is communist to have max prices on basic groceries.
Ok in my neck of the woods: I pay for UHT milk CY 6 cartons of 1 liter 10.40 euro which is 39,34 NIS and 11,32 dollar |
The US be like: we have food stamps for poor people who can't afford to buy food.
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singleagain
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:40 am
Actually as someone who works in a grocery store WIC items have a max amount of $ it can be offered at. We have many WIC items that are below our targeted margins which means we aren't making a ton of money on it at all.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:47 am
| singleagain wrote: | | Actually as someone who works in a grocery store WIC items have a max amount of $ it can be offered at. We have many WIC items that are below our targeted margins which means we aren't making a ton of money on it at all. |
Understood but I'm assuming if the half gallons were 2.19 and the full gallon was 4.99 and only the full gallon was available through WIC, it was more than double the half because that was a price they could be reimbursed through WIC.
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amother
Yolk
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:55 am
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I didn't read all the responses. But we live out of town too. And when finances got too tight, we compromised. My kids and I ate now eat Cholov Stam, but my husband still keeps Cholov Yisroel. It's cheaper to buy two different bottles of milk, then to go through all that Cholov Yisroel milk. If I'm making a dairy dinner then I obviously make it Cholov Yisroel.
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singleagain
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Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:56 am
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | Understood but I'm assuming if the half gallons were 2.19 and the full gallon was 4.99 and only the full gallon was available through WIC, it was more than double the half because that was a price they could be reimbursed through WIC. |
We can sell both half gallon and whole gallons of CY milk through WIC and get that money back. Honestly, anyone can look it up on the WIC site and see what the max cost is.
It is divided into peer groups of size of supermarkets. So all supermarkets of a certain size can sell them for x amount and all supermarkets of a bigger size can sell it for y amount.
And if we want to take sell something for more than the allotted amount then we have to take it off WIC. Which if the half gallon is done like that it sounds like that's what the store decided.
Why not look it up on your states WIC website and then ask the manager?
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