How to determine if you're close enough to go to shiva house

amother

Magenta

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 11:46 am

When I sat shiva I appreciated each and every person that came. Many I wasn't so close to, but it made me feel like my whole community is mourning with me. Like my whole town is feeling the loss of my mother, not just going about their business.

That being said if it's a sensitive shiva like a little child or suicide chas vesholim or very sudden then the rules might be different...

amother

Peru

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:23 pm

S1959 wrote:

It's only a few minutes - better than regretting later not going. I find it helpful to ask what one can learn from the nifter .

Actually not always helpful. I did not have a good relationship with my Dad and when I was sitting Shiva people asked me that and I didn't have good memories to share.

amother

Feverfew

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:48 pm

watergirl wrote:

For what it's worth, I think this is protocol for most shiva visits. If you are especially close with the person, a longer visit may be ok but it really depends on the person. I know personally when people came and stayed for a while it really bothered me. I didn't have the energy for that.

Agreed

Simple1

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 12:52 pm

amother DarkKhaki wrote:

I had a similar dilemma recently and someone told me that if you would go to her simcha then you should go to the Shiva too. Otherwise skip it.

I absolutely appreciated people who came even though they wouldn’t attend a simcha. But maybe this depends on the individual and the type of loss. Also there are anyways people coming that the avel might not know but they knew the niftar.

amother

Violet

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 2:14 pm

Cheiny wrote:

There’s no special closeness necessary to do that difficult but important Mitzvah.
I know of cases where total strangers who’d never met the niftar went to be menachem the family and it’s always appreciated.

Another poster who totally disagrees. I had a really had a hard time with people I barely had a relationship with or even once had a relationship with them but hadn’t seen them in twenty years come be menachem avel me. As it is, sitting shiva involves a lot of “entertaining” (whether it should or shouldn’t is not for this thread but at the end of the day it does) and I found it incredibly draining. Random people I barely knew coming to be menachem avel placed an additional burden on me which I did NOT appreciate.

I know there are people who don’t agree with my perspective, (and do/did get nechama from just about anyone coming) but I also know many people who feel the same way that I do so I don’t think it’s wise to issue a blanket statement (such as your visit will definitely be appreciated and/or you’ll never regret a shiva call)

amother

Bottlebrush

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:25 pm

Speaking from experience since I just went through this…I will say I am guilty myself of not being menachem avel because of it being uncomfortable for me and now in retrospect I regret it. I found that the people who made the effort to show up whether or not they were close to me was very touching and really taught me to make the effort the next time.
I will echo what another poster said and say that bumping into people while at the grocery and they say “I really meant to come to the shiva but…” is super uncomfortable and I’m not sure how to respond.
Just go.

amother

Plum

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:41 pm

I never used to pay a shiva visit unless I felt close to the niftar or avel or felt a familial or communal obligation. I find shiva visits very uncomfortable and awkward and I avoided them when possible.

Then I unfortunately had to sit shiva myself and I so appreciated each and every person who came or called or emailed or texted. Now I make a point of paying shiva calls even when it's a more tenuous connection. I still don't quite know what to say, but I sit quietly or make a small comment and then get up and say hamakom. The next time I've seen these acquaintances they've made a particular point of thanking me for coming so I assume the effort is appreciated.

amother

Azalea

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 3:42 pm

I would also say you should go. When I was sitting shiva, I really felt comforted by the people who made the effort to come eventhough they didnt know me well.
But it really depends on the size of the shiva. In certain communities, or if the family of the niftar is well known, so many people attend the shiva that it quickly becomes really overwhelming for the family. In this case, I only go if I am close.

amother

Junglegreen

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 4:38 pm

amother Azalea wrote:

I Bh never sat shiva yet so can’t talk from that perspective. I just want to comment on the “when so many people come it becomes overwhelming” that you mentioned and the idea that if not close it’s awkward that was mentioned upthread.
I am very close to a woman a lot older than I am who was married to a rosh yeshiva (tri state area). Over the years, I’d spoken to some of their children, but never met the children in person. Seldom met the mom in person either - majority of our relationship is over the phone.
When her husband was niftar, I pushed myself to go be menachem avel even though it was very uncomfortable. I knew she’d understand if I couldn’t bring myself to but also knew it was the right thing to do. The place was packed. Tons of people. I didn’t even try to sit - went over to her, said the pasuk (is it even a pasuk?) and left. I did not say anything to the children as we’d never met and I knew they don’t know who I am. I sent them each an individual text saying hamakom. Every one of the children separately told me at a later date that they wished I would have introduced myself and said it in person… there were hundreds of people there every day. And they still cared.

I learned to err on the side of caution and go.

amother

Milk

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:25 pm

amother OP wrote:

I sometimes feel that texting is a good alternative for when you're not that close to the mourner. But I don't have her cell number, being that I'm not very close to her.

Another option is to write a handwritten card and mail some warm words. Words from the heart are accepted with warmth.
I once wasn't able to be menachem avel because I heard about it too late. I mailed a heartfelt card about my memories of the nifter and expressed my sorrow along with the pasuk for nechama. A few months later I bumped into the family member of the nifter that I had sent the card to. She went on and on about what that card meant to her. Words expressed from the heart do penetrate. The receiver can feel them.

ShishKabob

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:25 pm

amother DarkKhaki wrote:

I had a similar dilemma recently and someone told me that if you would go to her simcha then you should go to the Shiva too. Otherwise skip it.

I used to think along the same lines, but now I totally disagree with this.
It's a huge mitzva to go.
Shlomo Hamelech says that it's better to go to a bais avel than a bais simcha or something like that.

mizle10

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 7:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

I got her cell phone number. Should I text her instead?

I think sending a text is for yourself so you don’t need to feel awkward you didn’t acknowledge it. Now she needs to take the energy to respond to someone she really doesn’t have much to do with.

The proper thing to do would be to go for 2 minutes, don’t say anything, just listen and say hamakom. She won’t be offended or wonder why you came.

crust

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 8:50 pm

amother DarkKhaki wrote:

I had a similar dilemma recently and someone told me that if you would go to her simcha then you should go to the Shiva too. Otherwise skip it.

I used to think like this too until I sat Shiva myself.

I can tell you that it's really not true.
When you make a simcha the simcha gives you the energy and everyone just loves to come.

When you sit Shiva the people that come give you the energy and believe it or not many people don't come so even if you think that there are sooo many people that come its never enough.

You appreciate to see that people care about you and the niftar and take these few moments to step in and say hamakom.
There's a reason Chazal set up Shiva this way and there's a reason its a mitzvah.

Yes, of course there are people that sit for too long and say nerdy things but for the most part, everyone that came was very appreciated.

So, my advice is- step in. Sit down. Sit for 120 seconds. Say the pasuk and leave.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jan 30 2023, 9:53 pm

I sat shiva for my daughter several months ago. Every person who came was touching. Yes some people overstayed, and some people made stupid comments. But I was really touched by everyone, even those I didn’t know well. If you have a valid reason for being unable to come in, voicemails and texts (or handwritten cards) are much appreciated and don’t have to be responded to.
However, I was horrified to read that you felt you could be Menachem Aveil if you bump into her.
Please, whatever you do, don’t do that.
It is so so painful.
Firstly, how dare you bring up painful emotions for a person when they’re trying to go about normal life. Just because you bumped into them, you now are going to bring their pain into the forefront of their day, and force them to respond to you in a totally unnatural, uncomfortable situation?
Secondly, by doing that you are just showing that you were too chicken (or couldn’t be bothered) to at least text something, let alone pay a shiva visit or call. But now that you’re bumping into them and feeling uncomfortable…ah…now you have to say something. So it’s all about you, not the aveil.
Let me tell you, I resented those people greatly. They caused me tremendous pain. And anyone I’ve spoken to who has had similar experiences has felt the same.