Is this ethical/ok. Taking vacation on others discount servi

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Forum -> Relationships -> Manners & Etiquette

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amother

Gold

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 2:28 am

I am a therapist. I would be happy for a client to go on a break. I think some break is needed.

But a 2500 one? No, sorry. Use that money for a need and pay me a little more each session. I really don't make that much after all the costs associated with my practice. Rent, electric, tissues, malpractice insurance, taxes, billing software, whatever we use for notes that is HIPAA compliant, the reminder text posters here on imamother say is an absolute necessity and we can't complain if we have no shows without it is an additional cost from the billing software...
Oh yeah, plus student loans, trainings, CEUs...
I haven't taken a 2500 vacation. I need ANY vacation.

Iymnok

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 2:43 am

amother Gold wrote:

That’s mostly points. The points cover the flight, hotel, and car rental if they choose that. They won’t be paying cash. Eating out and certain attractions is what their expenses really are.
It’s not coming out of your paycheck.

amother

Gold

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 2:49 am

Iymnok wrote:

Points often can be converted to cash. If that is not the case, I would have no issues with people using points for vacations. Because it is "free" but only on a flight... But I thought it cost them 2500, not what points they used if the points have no cash value. If the attractions and cash expenses are a lot, then personally I would rethink it because I am not sure I could spend it knowing I have a hard time affording my other needs.
But personally, give me a free hotel room even in my current city and I would be fine. Just 2 days away from it all, sleeping when I want, reading and taking walks... Hiding

amother

Vanilla

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 6:00 am

I’m an attorney that does a lot of divorce work. I have times when I give discounted rates to women who were barely making it financially. If they had the opportunity to go on a one time vacation they were saving points for id be fine and happy for them. Not ok when I see them eating out a lot or wearing /buying expensive clothing after I worked for them for a lot less. Or when one showed me her balance sheet and she has a decent sized savings account.

Also OP - the fact that you’re asking means a lot. It means you’re focused on the issue, cognizant of the potential problem there. You’re one step above most!

BTW - you usually get another more value from points booking travel than just cashing out.

amother

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 9:55 am

amother Vanilla wrote:

I know... Unfortunately not with Air bnb anymore

amother

Lavender

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 10:04 am

This is a spin off but I teach swimming lessons in the summer to supplement my teaching income. I have a strong belief that money shouldn’t hold people back from learning how to swim and won’t refuse a client as long as they pay something. Many people seem to be taking advantage of me and begging for scholarships to the point where I am rethinking my whole approach, one of the woman who pays the lowest rate recently reviewed a luxury steakhouse - one of those places where a meal is a few hundred dollars. And it made me feel awful, like I am not doing a chesed , I just let people take advantage. It’s a fine line, I don’t think an occasional vacation on points is the end of the world but I don’t think it should be a luxury vacation abroad while you are receiving tzedakah .

watergirl

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 10:21 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

Please ask a rabbi. Once you know you have daas Torah you can feel confident you got the right answer and there won’t be any guilt or question as to whether you did the right thing or not.
Please don’t leave this to the women here. They can’t tell you the right thing. Only a rabbi can.
Good luck.

This was my initial thought but I held back because it does not seem to be what OP wants to hear.

Still, as they are a kollel family, one would think their first inclination would be to ask their rav for an eitza or even a psak and then do that.

On imamother, there thoughts about things like vacations and cleaning ladies span from luxuries to necessity and comments miss a lot of nuance - one thing is not true for all. And we stand on our opinions on these points extremely firmly. What is true for one family is not true for the other family...

So OP, I think if you really want to know if you are doing the right thing, your rav is the only person who can give you an answer appropriate for you and your husband.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 10:33 am

Iymnok wrote:

Yes it is because she got a discount on the services
Had the therapists and service providers known she’d ultimately take a vacation costing thousands, they might not have agreed to let her pay them less
They might’ve agreed because they thought she didn’t have an extra dime to spend

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 10:36 am

watergirl wrote:

Well said

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 10:37 am

amother OP wrote:

OK to avoid misconfusion , I have to apologize. Based on most of the posts here I feel better already with my decision. My fear was not that they will find out as both of them are so busy in life that they don't have time to look after me..(one is in a different state and the other in a different country..we do by zoom) it was a question more of morals/ethics.. If it's right to do such a thing or not when getting discounts , the biased part of me which so badly wanted a vacation Said it doesn't matter but I decided to ask over here others opinions...
If therapy was a one time healing event (I wish) and it wS let's say 4000 dollars on therapy or get a discount and use 2000 for vacation I definitely wouldn't do it..
Therapy was payed for weekly/monthly.. and in the midst of 3 years points were accumulated.. and yes it's only for a few days and can cancel...

Please ask daas Torah

NotInNJMommy

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 10:45 am

I don't think this is a halachic issue.

Use your points and have a pleasant well earned, modest vacation.

It's only for a few days, this isn't some insanely bougie trip and like you said, you're paying for the majority of it with points.

You're allowed to take care of yourself. Unless you can pay your provider with points, there's really nothing to think about.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 10:46 am

NotInNJMommy wrote:

It is a halachic issue
If it’s not her rav can tell he that
When someone has a dilemma it never hurts to ask daas Torah

NotInNJMommy

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 11:05 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

It is a halachic issue
If it’s not her rav can tell he that
When someone has a dilemma it never hurts to ask daas Torah

Of course a rav can tell her that, and one can always ask a rav, but I don't think it's a halachic issue or there's even a basis that there could be. I don't see anything indicating she can't go on vacation with points she can only use for those things, and not paying her providers with cc points which probably isn't legal or possible anyways.

What halacha is it violating?

How is this any more of an issue than taking gov't funding or other subsidies (legally) and also getting cc points and using them on what they can be used for?

I'm saying this doesn't seem clearly to NEED a consult with a rav, or that the rav will answer with a halachic vs. eitzah answer.

This is a few day trip, not a month long retreat to St. Tropez....paid for with points that can only be used for those things. And you have a payment plan with your providers based on your actual income---earning points isn't income.

amother

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 11:40 am

amother Lavender wrote:

so although this is a s/o I want to say that theast time (besides for two months ago where our future sil had come to visit and we had to make a good impression on him to show we are not super cheap so we took him out with our daughter and we had to pay the price because of a bill of 175 in a dairy restaurant) we ate out was in a restaurants was 6 years ago...) we never and I don't think will ever eat out in an upscale restaurant as it's is really not worth it for us.. (not even to pay with poi to is it worth it) the reason I feel the need to travel aboard is because of enormous challenges we had (and covid was another factor as when many people were able to leave their house since we had someone here immunocompromised everyone had to stay home in our apartment which had no backyard to even spend a vacation there.. (when I wanted a small time to relax I would either take a walk or go to the fire escape and sit there and enjoy the breeze..) otherwise we wouldn't need as much... I just want to celebrate the ability of .asking it through till now and start from fresh..

amother

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 12:00 pm

Ok I guess we will ask a Rav..
Just to say my intention of starting this thread was just to see what most people had they been in the therapist shoes would think had they known the situation...
Now if most therapist wouldn't care then I would have no prime doing it behind my therapist back (because then she is not thinking correctly , yes and sorry to say therapists are huma s too and not perfect said to me by my therapist)
If most therapists care and my therapist
Wouldn't care (if I asked which I was afraid to) I wouldn't feel guilty either as mine also was mochel...

Another point that I am just wondering (I am asking out of curiosity and nicely so please no bashing)
If someone for example as a kid gets a discount in college because they couldn't afford and later they become the top doctor lawyer or other professional and make tons of money are they stealing if they go on vacation or other lofty expense before having hakaras hatov and paying up their institute (I am not talking about a loan here) if someone took a mortgage on a house and now must spend every single penny on that house to pay up and gets tomchei shabbos and other tzedaka be because they don't have food for the table (and I am not talking about a mansion but a regular house (2-3 bedroom)... and I hope so.ething doesn't say a few Day vacation is better than a house because then I am happy to switch positions and give my vacation for your house..) is that also stealing?

amother

Gladiolus

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 12:00 pm

How would NOT going away -using mostly cc points help your therapist? You can’t pay your therapist with cc points…

amother

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 12:02 pm

amother Gladiolus wrote:

How would NOT going away -using mostly cc points help your therapist? You can’t pay your therapist with cc points…

you technically can I believe. You pay them regular price and get a statement credit discount with points..(tell me if I am right)

watergirl

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 12:03 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I don't know of a halacha she is violating. I think she has a question of ethics, by her own admission she said it's an ethical thing that's bothering her. So when this is the case, you go to your rav.

amother

Lightpink

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 1:49 pm

amother Gladiolus wrote:

How would NOT going away -using mostly cc points help your therapist? You can’t pay your therapist with cc points…

According to posters on this thread she should sell the cc points and give the cash to the therapist.

amother

Iris

Fri, Feb 03 2023, 2:04 pm

amother OP wrote:

Just wondering from anyone opinion over here if you were a professional offering a lower price to someone because of their true financial situation and later find out the took a vacation would you be upset ?

I would not be upset in the slightest. In fact, I would be really happy for you that you were able to take a vacation for the first time in 8 years, by creatively accumulating points for this purpose.

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