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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
S/o How common is OTD?
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:10 am
a different thread was talking about kids going off the derech. my DH is very cynical and he thinks OTD children are going to become more and more common , that the frum world won't be be able to continue the way it is. I don't know many people so I'm not a good judge so curious, those of you who know lots of frum families, is it being more common to have at least one child who is no longer frum, more then one? or is it still the way I think of it that children might be more yesheivish or more modern but in most families everyone is shomer shabbos...
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amother
Kiwi


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:19 am
I know more people my age who are off and less from the younger generations. I think a lot of the issues that caused my generation to leave have been worked on. Like abuse, issues in schools, special Ed programs, organizations that help people move to different communities… I do not believe we will lose a lot of kids, I think the frum schools are on a good path. ( I am talking about yeshivish and JPF those are the communities and schools I know well )
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:20 am
Yes it's unfortunately much more common.
But I do think nowadays kids that are otd are more of an emotional/mental health reasons than a rebellion against the frum world.
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:26 am
Inwardly or outwardly
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:26 am
Many of my high schools friends and friendlies are otd. We went to a mainstream BY in town. It was a combination of mental health issues interacting with the frum community in a painful way that made them go off from what I’ve seen. Several of them say they see no flaws in the frum system, it was just too hard for them to stay in it given their mental health issues.

Our generation is really struggling mentally. I wonder what is causing that.

I was a very emotionally unhealthy teen myself. Several of my teachers acted as my surrogate mothers and spent many hours trying to help me. It’s in large part due to that that I am frum today.
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ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:29 am
amother Denim wrote:
Yes it's unfortunately much more common.
But I do think nowadays kids that are otd are more of an emotional/mental health reasons than a rebellion against the frum world.
totally this. It’s usually a Refuas hanefesh type of thing.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:33 am
Definitely more common than 30 years ago. Unfortunately it's just much easier for people to opt out. Adults going it'd is way more common.
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Ima_Shelli




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:36 am
Not sure I fully agree with your husband but one HUGE issue is older singles going OTD. If one is not part of a married/ couples framework it can be very hard to stay committed since that is how our community is set up…
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:36 am
amother Tangerine wrote:
Many of my high schools friends and friendlies are otd. We went to a mainstream BY in town. It was a combination of mental health issues interacting with the frum community in a painful way that made them go off from what I’ve seen. Several of them say they see no flaws in the frum system, it was just too hard for them to stay in it given their mental health issues.

Our generation is really struggling mentally. I wonder what is causing that.

I was a very emotionally unhealthy teen myself. Several of my teachers acted as my surrogate mothers and spent many hours trying to help me. It’s in large part due to that that I am frum today.


1- Covid lock down had a huge impact on teens, at an age when social life should have been the most important thing in their life.
2- lack of communication/meaningful conversation. Cell phones, texts and funny post have replaced healthy human interactions!
3- instagrammer portraying screen shot of their lives as real life when in fact it is only an illusion or a minor part of their lives. Teens wonder why their lives are so different.
4- the obvious: s-xual abuse/molestation Crying
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giftedmom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:40 am
There’s always been an ebb and flow with people leaving. Before and right after the Holocaust people were dropping observance in droves. Then there was a lull as the survivors rebuilt. Now it’s picking up again. But I don’t think we’re all going to assimilate any time soon.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 10:46 am
Unfortunately I think it will remain too high. But despite all the ostensible reasons not because of anything the frum community is doing so wrong. Historically speaking anytime people were living in a free society that put no impediment on joining the upper middle class the OTD rate was a lot higher than it is today. It will still remain lower than most other times in history when people had todays external circumstances.si
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GLUE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 11:12 am
giftedmom wrote:
There’s always been an ebb and flow with people leaving. Before and right after the Holocaust people were dropping observance in droves. Then there was a lull as the survivors rebuilt. Now it’s picking up again. But I don’t think we’re all going to assimilate any time soon.


For the ebb and flow just read the Sefer Shovtim, the whole Sefer is how the Jews abandoned Hashem and how the Nuvi brought them back.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 11:18 am
GLUE wrote:
For the ebb and flow just read the Sefer Shovtim, the whole Sefer is how the Jews abandoned Hashem and how the Nuvi brought them back.
But there were also big periods of tranquility and Avodas Hashem.
This is what is meant every time it says something like "Vatishkot Haaretz Arbaim Shana", etc...
Imagine, 40 years of consecutive Avodas Hashem.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 11:34 am
GLUE wrote:
For the ebb and flow just read the Sefer Shovtim, the whole Sefer is how the Jews abandoned Hashem and how the Nuvi brought them back.

Enjoyed this connection. Thank you.
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amother
Firethorn


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 12:09 pm
Nothing to do with covid, I doubt you'll find any kind of statistical correlation.
Imo, it's more about personality than anything else. Some people just don't like conformity or intense structure or detailed rules. Or they want more openness.
Just like people who flip out and become much more frum than their background are usually people who like self discipline and structure.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 12:23 pm
amother Firethorn wrote:
Nothing to do with covid, I doubt you'll find any kind of statistical correlation.
Imo, it's more about personality than anything else. Some people just don't like conformity or intense structure or detailed rules. Or they want more openness.
Just like people who flip out and become much more frum than their background are usually people who like self discipline and structure.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/rele.....year.
How else would you prove it besides for statistics?
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amother
Firethorn


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 1:18 pm
amother Denim wrote:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2022/p0331-youth-mental-health-covid-19.html#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20new%20data,hopeless%20during%20the%20past%20year.
How else would you prove it besides for statistics?

That is not a survey or statistics abt frum kids leaving the Jewish world.
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amother
Brass


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 1:22 pm
I agree that there is always an ebb and flow, and what is nice about our generation (compared to the pre- holocaust haskala) is that there is greater awareness of supporting struggling teens that helps them come back.

What I do see as a "newer" phenomonom is the adult OTD. I think that histroically we always had teens/young adults choosing different paths, and if you go back to say Bayis Sheni it seems like you also had people becoming Tzedukim as adults, but I think that more recently this was rare for a mature adult with adult/ teen children to go OTD, and it seems WAY more common then it used to be.

I'm not just referring to the big names like Julia Haart or Leah Forster, all around me I see adults in there 30's, 40's, and 50's making these huge changes. Its not nearly as common as the teen OTD phenomonom, but to me the numbers are shocking ( especially if you add in Orthroprax people) and used to be practically non- existant.

I think this has to do with the increase in mental health/emotional/marital issues, delayed maturation that we have now as a society in general, and they way we set up our kids for a lifestyle where they are helped/dependent on parents into the early adulthood, so it is harder for people to make the changes they may have always wanted when they where younger. Also the secular world being so LGBTQ+ obsessed is seeping into our society and making people realize things about themselves and make radical choices.

Of course, this wrecks so much more havoc, because someone going OTD as a teen or a young adult will have max a few young children and there is time for families to work out a system with visitation ect. before teenage hood hits, but when you have a large family + teens it is so much more complicated.
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BrisketBoss




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 1:23 pm
I think it's easier now for kids to see what's out there, and fairly easy to leave observance when you're young and unattached.

But it depends on so many things. What do your parents believe and how did they show it? To what extent did they make observance enjoyable? To what extent did they make it a chore? What were your teachers like, and the general culture around you? What is your personality? Are you someone who is going to explore who you want to be and see what direction it takes you, or someone who is inclined to do what you were brought up to do without examining it?

Because there are so many options, frumkeit really has to sell itself. What will be the convincing force in the child's life that frumkeit is right for them?
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Tue, Feb 28 2023, 4:35 pm
I think it's easier now to fall through the cracks now than it was. There is more exposure with internet to the outside world and temptations.

My son has a classmate. Regular frum family. The father a few years ago stopped being frum. The mother has a much harder job now. Even though they are divorced, the father is no longer a force keeping the kids in the fold.

My 19/20 year old has 2 elementary school classmates (that I know of) that went off the derech in high school and are completely not frum now.

I have a relative that runs a solid, loving, supportive, frum home. 2 boys are completely off the derech and a 3rd holding on, but way more modern than the rest of the family.

I think it's harder for the boys. The intense schedule. Schools are cookie cutter...
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