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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Purim
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amother
Moccasin
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 Wed, Mar 08 2023, 3:25 pm
| miami85 wrote: | There are a lot of different opinions for what and why it happened, lots of different midrashim.
The only "givens" are that Vashti was a wicked daughter of Nevuchadnetzar who Hashem wanted to punish her mida k'neged mida. |
I think she was his granddaughter
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 4:15 pm
| b.chadash wrote: | | I have heard an opinion many years ago that she wasn't executed but rather exiled to a foreign land. Not sure if it's a legitimate opinion though. |
Pretty sure the Malbim says this.
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scruffy
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 4:16 pm
My Jewish Learning is nondenominational.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 4:19 pm
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I started reading Hiding in Plain Sight by Rabbi David Shabtai and it's pretty interesting for anyone looking for a fresh look at the Megilla. I have learned various perspectives over the years on it pretty in depth but this is from a political point of view which is new to me.
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amother
Dustypink
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 4:45 pm
OP, what are you trying to make sense of?
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amother
OP
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 7:26 pm
The s-xism bothers me. Like she is spoken as an evil wicked person and here she actually did a brave thing. Yes what she did with Jewish girls is wicked. But from the megillah, it seems the authors were totally cool with this part of the story that she refused to show up and therefore she was banished. And letters were even sent out that the men must be the ruler of the house.
And to the poster who said it's my 21st century sensibilities, well yeah, I guess... it's just sad to me, like the torah, and the torah shebaal peh are supposed to be eternal so didn't they think then that this aspect was wrong of the king and maybe there should be something in the megillah saying that. I don't know exactly what I would've wanted, but it just makes me sad.
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b.chadash
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 7:48 pm
| amother OP wrote: | The s-xism bothers me. Like she is spoken as an evil wicked person and here she actually did a brave thing. Yes what she did with Jewish girls is wicked. But from the megillah, it seems the authors were totally cool with this part of the story that she refused to show up and therefore she was banished. And letters were even sent out that the men must be the ruler of the house.
And to the poster who said it's my 21st century sensibilities, well yeah, I guess... it's just sad to me, like the torah, and the torah shebaal peh are supposed to be eternal so didn't they think then that this aspect was wrong of the king and maybe there should be something in the megillah saying that. I don't know exactly what I would've wanted, but it just makes me sad. |
1. The "authors" were MOrdechai and Esther. But, the megilla was divinely inspired. every word was written with Ruach Hakodesh.
2. The authors are not giving commentary, simply relating a story. There is no judgement on Achasheveiosh or Vashti. It doesn't say Vashti was wicked or Achashveirosh was Wicked. It doesn't even say Haman was wicked, just that Esther referred to him as an enemy. So the authors are not "cool " with anything.
3. The megilla talks about the letters that were sent out is because that's what happened. Nothing to do with the authors of the megilla.
Medresh says that Memuchan/Haman had an inferiority complex because of his own marriage, and therefore suggested to the king to send out letters.
Last edited by b.chadash on Wed, Mar 08 2023, 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Dustypink
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 7:51 pm
| amother OP wrote: | The s-xism bothers me. Like she is spoken as an evil wicked person and here she actually did a brave thing. Yes what she did with Jewish girls is wicked. But from the megillah, it seems the authors were totally cool with this part of the story that she refused to show up and therefore she was banished. And letters were even sent out that the men must be the ruler of the house.
And to the poster who said it's my 21st century sensibilities, well yeah, I guess... it's just sad to me, like the torah, and the torah shebaal peh are supposed to be eternal so didn't they think then that this aspect was wrong of the king and maybe there should be something in the megillah saying that. I don't know exactly what I would've wanted, but it just makes me sad. |
I think you are reading the vashti story with your own agenda here.
You realize the same person who banished vashti wanted to kill out all your people from old to young. He sent out letters about that too.
Nobody looks at things that achashverosh did as acts of virtue and good statesmenship. This is a really bad, egotistical, power hungry guy. Vashti is another example.
And Where in the world does it seem like the megilla is "condoning" what achoshverosh did with vashti. The commentators I've read all say this was included to paint a not so flattering picture of the dude.
After vsshti is killed he essentially kidnaps and rps Esther and other maidens who then are trapped in the palace the rest of their lives. Esther and everyone else did not want to go to the palace. But does the megilla make a big deal about that really tragic episode? You need to read between the lines! Mordechai and Esther were not "cool with that". But you know, It's what was happening.
Of course. As others have mentioned, the megilla was written while Big A was still alive,. As he had a habit of killing people on a whim. Mordechai and Esther were pretty careful with how they worded things.
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skyeblue
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 11:12 pm
| amother OP wrote: | The s-xism bothers me. Like she is spoken as an evil wicked person and here she actually did a brave thing. Yes what she did with Jewish girls is wicked. But from the megillah, it seems the authors were totally cool with this part of the story that she refused to show up and therefore she was banished. And letters were even sent out that the men must be the ruler of the house.
And to the poster who said it's my 21st century sensibilities, well yeah, I guess... it's just sad to me, like the torah, and the torah shebaal peh are supposed to be eternal so didn't they think then that this aspect was wrong of the king and maybe there should be something in the megillah saying that. I don't know exactly what I would've wanted, but it just makes me sad. |
I agree with the other posters that the megillah is just relating a story. It's not passing judgement on Achashveirosh's actions. You can judge for yourself.
I also wonder that this is the example of s-xism that bothered you. I think Achashveirosh's "beauty pageant" is much worse. As is his sleeping with each "contestant" in turn, then relegating her to the house of concubines - since once she's been with the king, no other man was permitted to marry her. His harem must have contained thousands of women.
And not all these women went to him by choice. This is not in the megillah so I guess it's from midrashim, but I heard that, in addition to maidens who came at will, there were also women taken by force (abducted), and that the king's guards weren't so particular on maidens either - that is, they abducted married women as well. In fact, that's how Esther got there. Pretty horrific, if you ask me.
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miami85
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Wed, Mar 08 2023, 11:39 pm
| amother OP wrote: | The s-xism bothers me. Like she is spoken as an evil wicked person and here she actually did a brave thing. Yes what she did with Jewish girls is wicked. But from the megillah, it seems the authors were totally cool with this part of the story that she refused to show up and therefore she was banished. And letters were even sent out that the men must be the ruler of the house.
And to the poster who said it's my 21st century sensibilities, well yeah, I guess... it's just sad to me, like the torah, and the torah shebaal peh are supposed to be eternal so didn't they think then that this aspect was wrong of the king and maybe there should be something in the megillah saying that. I don't know exactly what I would've wanted, but it just makes me sad. |
I mean, the authors didn't actually spell it out. They wrote "wearing the royal crown"--and we only know the "truth" via medrashim.
And as for making her out to be the "victim", she probably wasn't "embarrassed", as much as she was trying to be "Defiant" or due to the tzaraas she also probably had at the time knowing that it was a "punishment".
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amother
OP
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Thu, Mar 09 2023, 10:11 am
| skyeblue wrote: | I agree with the other posters that the megillah is just relating a story. It's not passing judgement on Achashveirosh's actions. You can judge for yourself.
I also wonder that this is the example of s-xism that bothered you. I think Achashveirosh's "beauty pageant" is much worse. As is his sleeping with each "contestant" in turn, then relegating her to the house of concubines - since once she's been with the king, no other man was permitted to marry her. His harem must have contained thousands of women.
And not all these women went to him by choice. This is not in the megillah so I guess it's from midrashim, but I heard that, in addition to maidens who came at will, there were also women taken by force (abducted), and that the king's guards weren't so particular on maidens either - that is, they abducted married women as well. In fact, that's how Esther got there. Pretty horrific, if you ask me. |
You're right that's horrific.
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amother
Aqua
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Thu, Mar 09 2023, 10:34 am
the other question which I wonder is if achasverosh wanted a virgin how did esther become queen ?
Also how did they know who was a virgin or not ?
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b.chadash
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Thu, Mar 09 2023, 10:38 am
| amother Aqua wrote: | the other question which I wonder is if achasverosh wanted a virgin how did esther become queen ?
Also how did they know who was a virgin or not ? |
I think I learned that the original plan was to assemble all the virgins in the land. But after a few years, with no success, they expanded their search and took married women as well.
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amother
Oak
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Thu, Mar 09 2023, 12:14 pm
Learned a new word today 
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amother
Oak
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Thu, Mar 09 2023, 12:16 pm
| amother Currant wrote: |
…An awful lot of powerful men today like to show off their wives' pulchritude |
Make that two new words. From one post!
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amother
Currant
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Thu, Mar 09 2023, 12:30 pm
| amother Oak wrote: | | Make that two new words. From one post! |
Next week we'll feature the letter R, with risible and refractory leading the pack
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