Taking Little kids to shul

shalhevet

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 11:08 am

Raisin wrote:

I do feel sad that I am not able to sit with my older kids and help them daven because I have little ones. Sad

there is no one else in shul to do this, and soon my dd will be too old to sit with my dh.

Don't worry Raisin.

My oldest 2 dds are now 14 and 12.5. Over the years I thought the same as you - I never went to shul because I always had a baby and/or toddler. On RH I would sit outside to hear tekios and catch a little more davenning if I could. In Israel there aren't communities in the same way as chul, and I couldn't ask anyone to watch them, so they were outside with me. (Here, people wouldn't send a girl into the men over about 3, unless it was just to call someone.) So I always thought - how would they learn? When they were about 10 or 11 they started going to vasikin on RH and YK with my dh and sitting in the ezras nashim by themselves. Now they go for the whole time. I have been complimented several times on how they daven by other women who are there. I guess even seeing their mother with a siddur in her hand trying to daven at home has its effects. And maybe they also get chinuch by the fact that their mother says 'I can't come, even though I'd love to, so that your little brother won't disturb people davenning'....

In the kitchen

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 11:17 am

I enjoy hearing and seeing the kids run around shul. Its much safer than running around outside in the street while parents daven since who knows when they will be checked on...

There is a real issue with the diapers though. But if someone can arrange for a person to watch the youngest kids who are in diapers they can bring the other children to shul...I think it gives kids a bad feeling about shul if people are always telling them to be quiet and giving them angry looks. Kids should want to be in shul and be happy and comfortable there.

RachelEve14

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 11:32 am

Crayon210 wrote:

So why not wait until they can appreciate what shul is?

I have to sit on Crayon's bench with this one. I really feel you don't bring kids to shul until they *want* to be there to *davan* I see so many friends bring their little kids to shul. They give the kids bamba & bisli & let them go in & out so they won't disturb. They save special treats like juice in the sippy cup or a special book just for shul, just to keep the child quiet. Then the kid is 6 or 7 or 8 and all of a sudden the parent wonders why the child doesn't go to shul to daven. Well, shul is a place to eat bamba don't ya know? And when you are bored you go out for a break. Dh has just started taking the twins 1 at a time to Mincha. They consider going to shul a big treat and listen to the service, sit quietly, etc. Shul is a privalage they get now because they can sit quietly and listen to the davaning and the Torah reading. It's not a place they bring their snacks and their juice. That's the park Smile

I've had a lot of difficulty getting sitters at some times (my dh works Purim for example so me hearing Megilla is a megilla, parden the pun Smile

). On R"H I sit outside and listen, and one of my friend's son's can now blow shofer, so he did blow for me 1x when I missed in shul. This past year I didn't have a nursing baby so dh went to Vatikin on R"H one day so I could go and catch the end of the regular davaning while he took the kids to the park. YK the women make groups of 3 or 4 women w/ compatable kids and take turns 2 women watching the kids while 2 go to shul. I work it out not only for the sake of the other members of the congregation, but for my child's chinuch.

Speical children's services are different of course. We have one and actually you are not allowed to bring children under 3 (babes in arms excepted of course) because it is supposed to be a *service* for the children to davan, and they don't want babies interfereing with the chinuch and the tefila.

Ruchel

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 11:55 am

I'm so happy when there are other women (well ok I was, I haven't been for an eternity), sometimes on some shabbes there was someone else, or even several. I was very happy to hear them saying "this week I felt like seeing the community".

On chagim too generally there are women. On the first shabbes after they opened the big shul too, many people drove from neighbouring towns who don't have a shul. It was so noisy and chatty by the women that several times the men yelled at the women to stop.

Generally the "babies and kids everywhere" feeling is for Yom Kippur and simchas torah. I hate that they let kids play outside in the dark and it's so annoying to see many teens can't sit still either and need to run around, go play (!) outside...

Atali

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 11:59 am

I think that it depends on the child and the tefila.

The child- I think that if a child can normally behave for the length of the tefila, it is reasonable to take him, even if he will misbehave on occasion. However, this is assuming that the parent will take him out immediately if he is misbehaving or has a dirty diaper (if he still wears them).

The tefila- a child should only be taken for a tefila that they have the attention span to behave for. For this reason, my DH takes DS (almost 4) to mincha/ma'ariv on Shaabos, but not shacharis, since it is too long to expect a small child to behave for

Clarissa

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 12:29 pm

RachelEve14 wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

So why not wait until they can appreciate what shul is?

I've had a lot of difficulty getting sitters at some times (my dh works Purim for example so me hearing Megilla is a megilla, parden the pun Smile

I'm going to have to sit on a different bench than you. I don't think it's okay for kids to be totally out-of-control and disruptive, but I disagree that they can't enjoy being there with a juicebox and a small, quiet toy. If they grow up comfortable in the shul it becomes a second home to them. I don't think shul is a place you earn access to by davening, I think you start to daven because you've felt at home there for a while and begin to understand how to participate. My older child started singing along with certain prayers after a long time just hanging out there, and imitating his father or just watching.

Clarissa

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 12:40 pm

Clarissa wrote:

My father was raised Orthodox, wound up becoming Conservative and we went to a Conservative shul. When we'd visit my grandparents, we'd go to their Orthodox shul. My father always said that one of the things he loved about Orthodox shuls is that kids were accepted and welcome, even if they were running around and behaving like...kids. He felt Conservative shuls were more like churches sometimes, not as warm and family-oriented, and children were expected to sit quietly or leave.

This is my earlier post. I'm disappointed to see the responses in this thread, and I think my father would be, as well. I guess things have changed since my grandparents' day. Judging by what I'm reading here, I guess things have changed -- kids might be more welcome in Conservative shuls at this point than Orthodox. My grandfather's shul is long gone, I think, as the neighborhood has changed. My brother tells wonderful stories about being there as a little kid, and feels the shul he now attends is as warm and welcoming to his children.

I'm certainly not supporting people being there whose kids are distracting and disruptive, but just being little kids there I think elevates the atmosphere, because it's a place for families, in my opinion.

But to each her own.

gryp

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 12:43 pm

Quote:

The tefila- a child should only be taken for a tefila that they have the attention span to behave for. For this reason, my DH takes DS (almost 4) to mincha/ma'ariv on Shaabos, but not shacharis, since it is too long to expect a small child to behave for

That's what we do too. My boys can go for Mincha on Shabbos and also during the week, but Shacharis, no way. They love going to shul and for the short time they're there they sit quietly, open siddurim, and daven what they know. Unless it's something they absolutely have to be there for, I'd rather keep them home than supply them with juice, lollipops, cookies, etc, and then expect them to keep still on the sugar overload.

Tehilla

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 12:43 pm

at our shul there are two things of note:

a kids program on Shabbos run by teens, complete with davening, stories, nosh, and if the weather is nice a walk to the park a half block away.

the other is that there are a lot of children, however not disruptions. many mothers will come for the last portion of davening and then the kiddush, or at least the children who are there are behaving.

they are definitely welcome, Clarissa. however, it's also important that they not be screaming and running around destroying things...ya know. men have to daven!

Clarissa

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 12:47 pm

Tehilla wrote:

I agree. I'm not a fan of people who let their kids run amuck. As soon as our kids make noise, we're out of there with them. I don't mean the occasional whispered request or question, I mean disruptive behavior.

I think it's funny that people think they have to pacify little kids with sugary foods. Where did that rule come from? We bring snacks for our kids, but we're talking Cheerios, cheese sticks or cut up fruit. They don't get a lot of junk on Shabbos because it's Shabbos. That would make one out of seven days a week filled with junk food. They are allowed to have some of the kiddush goodies along with everyone else, but they're not fed candy for sitting in shul.

freidasima

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 12:55 pm

There is a big difference between big communities, and small ones like the ones Ruchel is describing.
Also, I agree with shalhevet, this is how I always acted.
Babies in diapers don't go to shul. Period.
You can sit outside (our shul has a place) and hear the tekiot or there are tekiot for women, megillah for mothers, zachor for women etc. when your dh can mind the kids.
Otherwise it disturbs people. and halachically there is the issue of a dirty diaper.

Then there are the in betweens. The 3-7 year olds who are out of diapers and into mischief. They can go to shul only if they learn to be still when they are inside. If they get antsy, they can go out to play (our shul is in a safe area) quitely.

No food in shul. Ever. Period. I have never brought bisly, bamba, cookies or anything else to shul, ever for anyone. If there is a kiddush, enjoy and eat. But otherwise? An adult doesn't eat in shul, neither should a child. If you have a child who needs to eat on YK take them home. If they are that small you are probably stuck at home anyhow with other babies...unless it is your youngest by which time, if you are lucky, their older sisters can go and feed them and you can go and daven.

I agree with Shalhevet that my kids grew up from age 0 watching me daven at home. Shachris, Mincha, day in and day out. They saw me sitting on the floor saying aicha on Tisha beav when they were small and sat with me on the floor as infants. They saw me daven YK at home when they were younger and it is only in the past few years with no small children at home that I can go to shul and daven surrounded by my girls all of whom daven beautifully although as children they NEVER had a mother with them in the ezras noshim and didn't go to the men either after around age 6...

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jun 30 2008, 1:18 pm

My son turns 3 next week. I have just started the past 2 shabbosim letting him go quietly downstairs to the minyan my husband davens at for Shachris on Shabbos (it's in a house) and standing with my husband at the end of davening, when they're singing anim zemiros. I want him to appreciate davening in a shul, but he can only handle so much, and can only be quiet for a certain amount of time. (He actually is very good about keeping quiet. I have a feeling his younger brother is going to have to wait till he's older than that till he chaps how to behave in shul.)
To teach him to be quiet in shul, I spoke to him about it, at the end of davening, I would walk inside the house (upstairs) with him, and if he started running around, we walked outside. And that was that. No second chances. (Don't worry; we didn't disturb the minyan with this setup Wink

They couldn't hear us....not sure it would work in a regular shul.)
He understood quickly quiet means absolute quiet, and not just being quiet till you want to say something Tongue Out

So for the past couple weeks, he has gone downstairs by himself and stood quietly next to Abba, and as he gets older, I think I will let him go for more and more.
(And, no, diapers are B"H not an issue for him...that was another reason not to let him go beforehand.)

BTW, a great time to teach kids about shul I have found is simchas torah day -- in between dancing and Kol Hanearim, when the men are getting aliyos, the kids either need to be quiet or leave the shul until it's time for their aliya. My older son stayed quietly in shul this past year for that time with no problems...