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Kollel Life
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:49 pm
Atali wrote:
creativemommyto3 wrote:
Maybe the schools can put a box to check if you are willing to give extra money for the sake of kollel families and mothers who stay at home. if it is true that women are forced to go out to work for tuition.. is there some validity to say that maybe some kollel men should find some parnassa to help the finances, even if it is just some tutoring or safrus etc.


In that case the school should also ask if I am willing to pay extra to build a fancy new school building or a state-of-the-art science lab. I certainly am not.

Schools don't work that way. The school board (or whoever is in charge) decides how the money is spent. If individual families got to decide how school money is spent the school could not function. What if no one elected to pay for cleaning help?


I think there should be votes on this from the parents... parents are working super hard to pay for all this.. don't they have that right.. b''H I don't live in America..I would never be able to afford the schools... I would for sure be totally homeschooling.. now I only do partial homeschooling.. for english.
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:50 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
I wouldn't feel good about helping a kollel family in that situation, sorry.

What exactly is the option to say no? Scratching Head


Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about others in low-paying kodesh positions (such as teachers or shluchim), who could get paid a normal salary doing something else? Or is the issue simply with the idea of someone learning as opposed to influencing others.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:51 pm
I can tell you, most parents in this country who are struggling to pay tuition are not interested in helping those who can help themselves.
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:51 pm
shalhevet wrote:
I apologise if I misunderstood (especially if it wasn't crayon's personal opinion but she was just presenting what a tuition committee might say), but the point still stands. If someone values Torah they will at least value kolel enough to respect someone else's right to choose that lifestyle (just as they respect a couple's right to decide if the wife should work or not) meaning that that couple will now have a lower income with any implications that has for tuition.

From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


While I fully agree with this.. in Egypt it was only a few select shevatim...but it is really nice how there are many men learning these days..

There are some kwirks to the system though...
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creativemommyto3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:57 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
I can tell you, most parents in this country who are struggling to pay tuition are not interested in helping those who can help themselves.


The question is .. even if a kollel man would leave.. he probably wouldn't make soo much money since most jobs with decent pay require a college degree.. that would mean that he kollel man would have to work during the day and go to college at nite.. and then find some more time to study. that's very hard. not to mention that nowadays many jobs require a masters too..

although, there are some law schools that accept kollel men straight b/c of their talmudic minds.. except for the fact that some ppl think that being a lawyer in non jewish courts doesn't exactly breed good middos.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 5:58 pm
Crayon210 wrote:


Quote:
From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


I think this is more propaganda, sorry.


Huh? The Leviim in Egypt were not slaves, but learned Torah. Since they did not work they had no income/ food and were given ma'aser by the other shvatim.

In EY too, the Leviim served in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota and otherwise learned/ taught Torah, and were supported by maaser.
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:00 pm
creativemommyto3 wrote:
shalhevet wrote:
I apologise if I misunderstood (especially if it wasn't crayon's personal opinion but she was just presenting what a tuition committee might say), but the point still stands. If someone values Torah they will at least value kolel enough to respect someone else's right to choose that lifestyle (just as they respect a couple's right to decide if the wife should work or not) meaning that that couple will now have a lower income with any implications that has for tuition.

From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


While I fully agree with this.. in Egypt it was only a few select shevatim...but it is really nice how there are many men learning these days..

There are some kwirks to the system though...


Yes . There have always been some individuals who dedicated themselves to learning and teaching Torah, and there have always been those who supported them.

As long as there is enough money to go around, I think that as many people should be learning and teaching Torah as possible (after all that is what will happen when moshiach comes). However, I do see a problem when there are too many people learning and not enough money to support them, leading to financial problems within families and society as a whole (especially the schools).

Therefore, there has to be a balance and it has to be considered respectable for men to work and there needs to be a decent vocational training system available.

Especially since not everyone is suited for kollel life anyway.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:01 pm
creativemommyto3 wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
I can tell you, most parents in this country who are struggling to pay tuition are not interested in helping those who can help themselves.


The question is .. even if a kollel man would leave.. he probably wouldn't make soo much money since most jobs with decent pay require a college degree.. that would mean that he kollel man would have to work during the day and go to college at nite.. and then find some more time to study. that's very hard. not to mention that nowadays many jobs require a masters too..

although, there are some law schools that accept kollel men straight b/c of their talmudic minds.. except for the fact that some ppl think that being a lawyer in non jewish courts doesn't exactly breed good middos.


Guess what? None of this is the tuition committee's problem!
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:02 pm
shalhevet wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


Quote:
From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


I think this is more propaganda, sorry.


Huh? The Leviim in Egypt were not slaves, but learned Torah. Since they did not work they had no income/ food and were given ma'aser by the other shvatim.

In EY too, the Leviim served in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota and otherwise learned/ taught Torah, and were supported by maaser.


Very good. Gd set up this particular system.

There are certainly non-Leviim learning in kollel today. Who set up that system?
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:03 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
shalhevet wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


Quote:
From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


I think this is more propaganda, sorry.


Huh? The Leviim in Egypt were not slaves, but learned Torah. Since they did not work they had no income/ food and were given ma'aser by the other shvatim.

In EY too, the Leviim served in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota and otherwise learned/ taught Torah, and were supported by maaser.


Very good. Gd set up this particular system.

There are certainly non-Leviim learning in kollel today. Who set up that system?


The Rambam says at the end of Hilchos shemita v'yovlin that anyone who desires can behave like those in shevet Levi.
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:04 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
shalhevet wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


Quote:
From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


I think this is more propaganda, sorry.


Huh? The Leviim in Egypt were not slaves, but learned Torah. Since they did not work they had no income/ food and were given ma'aser by the other shvatim.

In EY too, the Leviim served in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota and otherwise learned/ taught Torah, and were supported by maaser.


Very good. Gd set up this particular system.

There are certainly non-Leviim learning in kollel today. Who set up that system?


and there are levi'im who work, too?. Should they leave work and learn in kollel?
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:05 pm
shalhevet wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
shalhevet wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


Quote:
From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


I think this is more propaganda, sorry.


Huh? The Leviim in Egypt were not slaves, but learned Torah. Since they did not work they had no income/ food and were given ma'aser by the other shvatim.

In EY too, the Leviim served in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota and otherwise learned/ taught Torah, and were supported by maaser.


Very good. Gd set up this particular system.

There are certainly non-Leviim learning in kollel today. Who set up that system?


The Rambam says at the end of Hilchos shemita v'yovlin that anyone who desires can behave like those in shevet Levi.


Does he say that they can collect ma'aser?
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:05 pm
Atali wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
shalhevet wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:


Quote:
From the time in Egypt the Jewish people has always valued that some people will sit and learn full time and others will help them continue to do so.


I think this is more propaganda, sorry.


Huh? The Leviim in Egypt were not slaves, but learned Torah. Since they did not work they had no income/ food and were given ma'aser by the other shvatim.

In EY too, the Leviim served in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota and otherwise learned/ taught Torah, and were supported by maaser.


Very good. Gd set up this particular system.

There are certainly non-Leviim learning in kollel today. Who set up that system?


and there are levi'im who work, too?. Should they leave work and learn in kollel?


No. My point is that we can't just take one system and decide that we're using it however we'd like.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:08 pm
Rambam, Hilchos shemita vyovel, 13: 10-11

Quote:
י [יב] ולמה לא זכה לוי בנחלת ארץ ישראל ובביזתה עם אחיו: מפני שהובדל לעבוד את ה' ולשרתו, ולהורות דרכיו הישרים ומשפטיו הצדיקים לרבים--שנאמר "יורו משפטיך ליעקוב, ותורתך לישראל" (דברים לג,י). לפיכך הובדלו מדרכי העולם--לא עורכין מלחמה כשאר ישראל, ולא נוחלין, ולא זוכין לעצמן בכוח גופן; אלא הם חיל ה', שנאמר "ברך ה' חילו" (דברים לג,יא), והוא ברוך הוא זיכה להם, שנאמר "אני חלקך ונחלתך" (במדבר יח,כ).

יא [יג] ולא שבט לוי בלבד, אלא כל איש ואיש מכל באי העולם אשר נדבה רוחו אותו והבינו מדעו להיבדל לעמוד לפני ה' לשרתו ולעובדו לדעה את ה', והלך ישר כמו שעשהו האלוהים, ופרק מעל צווארו עול החשבונות הרבים אשר ביקשו בני האדם--הרי זה נתקדש קודש קודשים, ויהיה ה' חלקו ונחלתו לעולם ולעולמי עולמים; ויזכה לו בעולם הזה דבר המספיק לו, כמו שזיכה לכוהנים וללויים. הרי דויד אומר "ה', מנת חלקי וכוסי--אתה, תומיך גורלי" (תהילים טז,ה).


[/quote]
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:11 pm
I don't see that that entitles him to ma'aser.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:15 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
I don't see that that entitles him to ma'aser.


Who says that entitles him to maaser? No one has to give who doesn't want. It means the Rambam explains it is a desirable way for someone to live their life.

When someone comes to a tuition committee they should be asked to pay according to their income. If their household has one income that is their choice. If someone is a bank clerk or a teacher when he could be a lawyer, that is his choice. If someone is working part time it is their choice. You cannot make the tuition committee the judge to impose their values on anyone's earning power and tell them they shouldn't be in kolel/ they should get a better paid but more stressful job/ they should work overtime etc etc.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:19 pm
But what if both parents want to stay home? So the kids should get full tuition, no values imposed?

Of course the tuition committee uses values to determine how much of a break a family gets. That's how they work.
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:19 pm
shalhevet wrote:
Crayon210 wrote:
I don't see that that entitles him to ma'aser.


Who says that entitles him to maaser? No one has to give who doesn't want. It means the Rambam explains it is a desirable way for someone to live their life.

When someone comes to a tuition committee they should be asked to pay according to their income. If their household has one income that is their choice. If someone is a bank clerk or a teacher when he could be a lawyer, that is his choice. If someone is working part time it is their choice. You cannot make the tuition committee the judge to impose their values on anyone's earning power and tell them they shouldn't be in kolel/ they should get a better paid but more stressful job/ they should work overtime etc etc.


However, if you look at my tuition thread (which CreativeMommy provided a link to above), you will see that many people disagree with this premise and think that a tuition committee can require stay-at-home mothers to work, and part-time employees to work full time.

I personally agree with you about this, though.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:20 pm
Also re: Shevet Levi. They had a position in the community that was integral and served a very important function for the community. I do not believe that kollel is analogous.
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Atali




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:21 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
Also re: Shevet Levi. They had a position in the community that was integral and served a very important function for the community. I do not believe that kollel is analogous.


Why?
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