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Kollel Life

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Crayon210

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:25 pm

Shevet Levi served as teachers, in the Bais HaMikdash, etc.

Kollel is not about teaching, BHMK, etc. It's about learning for learning's sake. Not to get semicha and run a community, not to be a melamed, not to be a posek or a mechaber sefarim. It's about learning.

Atali

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:27 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Okay, so what about those in community kollels or kiruv kollels who learn with community members for part of the day? Or those who do use there time in kollel to get dayanus and pasken shailos?

Crayon210

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:37 pm

I feel differently, for the most part.

That is not the general kollel concept, though.

Atali

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:41 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

I feel differently, for the most part.

That is not the general kollel concept, though.

So should those individuals get tuition assistance? If so, where should the committee draw the line? What if someone learns for 2/3 of the day and spends 1/3 teaching or writing sefarim?

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:44 pm

I didn't read the whole thread but I just wanted to clarify something. I live in Lakewood and tuition for a girl is $4,000 and no one gets a break. My dh is in Kollel and we are paying full tuition. They claim that tuition is lower for everyone. There is one school the cheder that gives a break $3,000 a month but they are the only school and that is because they are the yeshiva school.

Crayon210

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 6:48 pm

Atali wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

I feel differently, for the most part.

That is not the general kollel concept, though.

So should those individuals get tuition assistance? If so, where should the committee draw the line? What if someone learns for 2/3 of the day and spends 1/3 teaching or writing sefarim?

If the tuition committee thinks that what they're doing is valuable to the community, sure.

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 7:00 pm

However, if you look at my tuition thread (which CreativeMommy provided a link to above), you will see that many people disagree with this premise and think that a tuition committee can require stay-at-home mothers to work, and part-time employees to work full time.

I personally agree with you about this, though.

*** quote thingie isn't working!***

I don't have a problem with kollel, c''v. I do think, though, that if tuition breaks are given to kollel families in which the husband brings in little to no income, then they should also be given to working families in which one spouse is the main breadwinner and the other brings in little to no income. I personally would love love love to be a SAHM or even just work part time. Guess what? It has been made very clear by our finance director at our children's school that if I quit working to be a SAHM or even cut back to part time, there'll be NO adjustment made to our very high ($50,000) tuition bill, even though it would just about equal my DH's take home pay. So, we both work 50 hour weeks (when we're lucky - sometimes much more) essentially to pay the school's expenses for the many kollel children who receive greatly reduced tuition. We live a very modest lifestyle in all respects. I have to admit, it seems a little unfair to me. If everybody were such a terrific learner, and really contributing to the klal, maybe I'd feel better about it, but it really bothers me that my husband, who is a learned baalabos and gives shiurim on occasion, by his decision to work to earn our parnassah (which historically WAS the Jewish ideal) has put us in the situation where we're forced to be a two income family and have our children spend a large portion of their childhood with babysitters.

BTW, my husband did 1) work full time while 2) going to college and then getting his masters while 3) maintaining a full learning schedule. I basically didn't see him for several years except on shabbos. It can be done.

octopus

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 7:25 pm

I think the analogy between learning people and kollel is way off. Cuz guess what? When the bais hamikdash is rebuilt, the leviyim are going to be in the beis hamikdash and the kollel people are.... well ...kollel people, and not leviyim. It's just not the same kind of status. Because you are born a levi. period. If you would like to compare, then it is the yissochor/zevulun relationship. Not leviyim.

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2008, 9:36 pm

Tuition breaks in Lakewood to Kollel families is a big issue as most of Lakewood is in kollel- or at least that's what used to be. I think it was because of this that the schools there decided not to give breaks. Also many Kollel families are getting supported by s/o and for a school to have to make investigations into how much assistance, if any, a family is getting is really too much to expect.

creativemommyto3

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 1:57 am

I know that what I am about to say is probably going to sound interesting... but is there a way that the communities can band together so that nobody is overwhelmed ....

Maybe the kollel ladies and the wives of working men can band together and try to help each other..like making gemachim for foods for shabbos.. Make groups of 10 -15 ladies.. one lady makes the kugel.. one lady makes the challah, the cake, the soup, the fish, the salads... then gather all the food together and make shabbos packages for those families so these ppl can have life a bit easier..
I am sure in a place like Lakewood most ppl eat the same hechsherim..

Maybe you could make some supper carpools too.. anybody have ideas how to carpool the rest of the household chores?

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 3:42 am

happy2BaMommy wrote:

The Leviim were/ will be in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota system for a certain time each year. The rest of the time they learned/ taught. Go argue with the Rambam.

catonmylap

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 3:47 am

shalhevet wrote:

happy2BaMommy wrote:

The Leviim were/ will be in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota system for a certain time each year. The rest of the time they learned/ taught. Go argue with the Rambam.

The whole problem is that the Leviim taught(in addition to their service in Beis Hamikdash). They were teachers- Devarim 33;10.

If all the kollel guys were teachers of Torah, I think there would be a lot less complaints.

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 3:57 am

catonmylap wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

happy2BaMommy wrote:

The Leviim were/ will be in the Beis Hamikdash according to a rota system for a certain time each year. The rest of the time they learned/ taught. Go argue with the Rambam.

Which brings us back to what I posted before about people not valuing Torah learning for its own sake. Did you say bircot haTorah this morning?

HindaRochel

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 4:16 am

shalhevet wrote:

Which brings us back to what I posted before about people not valuing Torah learning for its own sake. Did you say bircot haTorah this morning?

One can value Torah learning for its own sake; that doesn't mean that one should also not value teaching that Torah to others as a way of implementing their learning Torah for its own sake, nor does it mean that all day one should sit and learn and not contribute anything else to society or the family. One of the arguements against going into Israel in the first place, back when the spies went out, was that if they did go out they would need to be at war, they would need to plant, they would need to eat and relieve themselves, and they wouldn't be able to sit and study all day.

Men who worked in the Beit Hamikdash were doing work. Then they went out and learned and taught.
Men who sat by the gates of the Temple learning also served as judges.
Men have a hiyuv to work and provide for the family and they are not suppose to learn all day and have their wives be the main support. The Yissachar Zevulun relationship was a one on one thing; an agreement between two men based on their abilities.

And yes, I did say birchat haTorah this morning.

shalhevet

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 4:43 am

HindaRochel wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Which brings us back to what I posted before about people not valuing Torah learning for its own sake. Did you say bircot haTorah this morning?

One can value Torah learning for its own sake; that doesn't mean that one should also not value teaching that Torah to others as a way of implementing their learning Torah for its own sake,

Why is this contradictory? I value both.

Quote:

nor does it mean that all day one should sit and learn and not contribute anything else to society or the family.

Uh, what is wrong in contributing in one area? The word else seems to have crept into your post by mistake (for you). Do you think it is wrong that doctors only contribute in the field of medicine and not anything else? Or mathematicians only contribute in the field of mathematics?

Quote:

One of the arguements against going into Israel in the first place, back when the spies went out, was that if they did go out they would need to be at war, they would need to plant, they would need to eat and relieve themselves, and they wouldn't be able to sit and study all day.

That is your interpretation of the midrash. People learning in kolel today still have to live and be part of a world in which people sow, reap, go to war, sew clothes and iron them. The Rambam doesn't have any problem with someone choosing to devote his life to avodas Hashem, even now that we are not living in the midbar, so maybe you should address your question to him. (By the way, you don't have a problem with someone teaching Torah, and that was also done in the midbar. Not everyone has to be a farmer you know.)

Quote:

Men who worked in the Beit Hamikdash were doing work. Then they went out and learned and taught.
Men who sat by the gates of the Temple learning also served as judges.

I really don't know what each individual did.

Quote:

Men have a hiyuv to work and provide for the family

But if someone else (including their wife) agrees to relieve them of that, they no longer have to.

Quote:

and they are not suppose to learn all day and have their wives be the main support.

Source please?

Quote:

The Yissachar Zevulun relationship was a one on one thing; an agreement between two men based on their abilities.

So how does that fit in with all what you wrote before?

Quote:

And yes, I did say birchat haTorah this morning.

So what did you daven for your children and descendants there?

Last edited by shalhevet on Tue, Aug 26 2008, 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total

creativemommyto3

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 5:18 am

----------------------

Last edited by creativemommyto3 on Tue, Aug 26 2008, 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Atali

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 10:25 am

Quote:

The reason why some say that it would feel better if kollel men also taught is b/c that is a tangible thing.. sometimes it is hard to grasp the spiritual protection we are getting..

.

Although I believe that every person in Kollel should give more directly to the community, either by giving shiurim, having chavrusas with community members, writing sefarim, learning dayanus, etc.; that doesn't mean there is no merit to someone learning purely lishma, and it is still preferable to working (assuming the wife is okay with it and someone is supporting the family).

Limud haTorah is a mitzvah, and not only that, a mitzvah that one must do (V'hgisa bo yomam v'lailah) unless one has a valid reason not to be learning at the moment. If one needs to support his family, that is, of course a valid reason.

But if one does not need to support his family (for example, because his wife is doing it), why shouldn't he be learning Torah all day?

octopus

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 1:58 pm

I don't know who started the whole "shevet levi" thing, but it seems to me, that a whole bunch of people (that are part of kollel) keep on repeating it.
It's not a good analogy.
It is a yissochor/zevulun relationship if other people who are not in kollel are supporting.

I'm sorry. I come from a family of kohanim. I find comparing kollel people to shevet levi as really off. Yes, kollel people deserve respect, etc. but it doesn't change their halachic status in a lot of things. It's just not a good analogy. A talmid chachom will still get the third aliyah on shabbos- not the first (kohen) nor the second (levi).

I understand the analogy is to drive home a point. But I still think it is off.
And I always thought that it was shevet shimon that were the teachers. I believe that's in a rashi somewhere...

Crayon210

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 2:05 pm

Atali wrote:

But if one does not need to support his family (for example, because his wife is doing it), why shouldn't he be learning Torah all day?

Because I think it would be preferable for the wife to stay home and raise the children and for him to go to work.

Crayon210

Tue, Aug 26 2008, 2:06 pm

happy2BaMommy wrote:

More than one shevet could have been involved in teaching.

In fact, I believe that Shevet Yissachar was involved in teaching as well.

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