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amother
Brickred
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 Mon, Sep 18 2023, 1:45 am
| amother Mistyrose wrote: | Supposed to? Who is sending everyone their roasts? And cases of chicken?
Yes, there are extra meals in Tishrei but you don't NEED meat every meal. And you don't NEED roasts.
We don't have tiny eaters but we make do with what we can afford. And don't do based off what others buy or have.
Yes, everyone should have food. And if they did 1 roast for the entire Tishrei then maybe it wouldn't feel so excessive. But there was also salmon sides, gefilte fish, chicken, cutlets, ground meat, stew meat...
This is TZEDAKA money. So it shouldn't be hurting others who feel a pressure. And hearing kids say "well Yankel's dad lost his job and they still had roast. Why can't we have? You are so mean!!" Stop upping the baseline for "normal and basic".
Especially when the receivers get better food for YT than the givers... because the givers are told it is basics, flour, oil, eggs, grape juice, chicken etc. Not 5 roasts and salmon. |
You are literally fabricating details here to make your point.
No one said anything about 5 roasts! Please. Unfortunately, we are really struggling now due to a medical crisis that set us back tremendously and from which we have never recovered and we are getting TS now.
I have a double-digit family and got exactly what the poster upthread described.
Guess what? Most of it is gone already after RH. I have some chicken bones left, one cheap meat (for which we are so grateful for!) and some basic groceries like half a bag of sugar and two boxes of cereal.
Do you know how many ingredients and grocery items it takes to make a simple YT meal? Especially when you need to stretch whatever you have and still make a nice meal? There's brown sugar and chocolate chips and round pans and apples and vinegar and on and on and on. Nothing extravagant. All necessary. And none of which is in the TS boxes. Do you know how hard it is to make a menu when every trip to the grocery is accompanied with dread and hope that the card won't be declined?
Yes, they send two meats. And very randomly, two boxes of lebens. I imagine this is because they got these at cost price/donated. But I can tell you that those few lebens absolutely made my kids' YT. It was the biggest treat. And BH we were able to have a simple meat this YT and will have one more on Sukkos. I don't know if my kids will get a single new item of clothing or if we will be going on any CH trips. But I guess TS feels that two simple, cheap meats for the entire YT season is not extravagant. And I happen to agree.
FTR we are not poor, we are low middle class with crazy living expenses or "frum poor". The real poor are actually better off in this economy as they qualify for govt programs. But for all of you who think ppl on TS are living it up while you struggle, think again. And if you really need the help, just apply. But don't come on here complaining and discouraging others from giving them tzedakah. They are literally keeping thousands families from going hungry.
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amother
Mistyrose
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 2:56 am
| amother Brickred wrote: | [/b]
You are literally fabricating details here to make your point.
No one said anything about 5 roasts! Please. Unfortunately, we are really struggling now due to a medical crisis that set us back tremendously and from which we have never recovered and we are getting TS now.
I have a double-digit family and got exactly what the poster upthread described.
Guess what? Most of it is gone already after RH. I have some chicken bones left, one cheap meat (for which we are so grateful for!) and some basic groceries like half a bag of sugar and two boxes of cereal.
Do you know how many ingredients and grocery items it takes to make a simple YT meal? Especially when you need to stretch whatever you have and still make a nice meal? There's brown sugar and chocolate chips and round pans and apples and vinegar and on and on and on. Nothing extravagant. All necessary. And none of which is in the TS boxes. Do you know how hard it is to make a menu when every trip to the grocery is accompanied with dread and hope that the card won't be declined?
Yes, they send two meats. And very randomly, two boxes of lebens. I imagine this is because they got these at cost price/donated. But I can tell you that those few lebens absolutely made my kids' YT. It was the biggest treat. And BH we were able to have a simple meat this YT and will have one more on Sukkos. I don't know if my kids will get a single new item of clothing or if we will be going on any CH trips. But I guess TS feels that two simple, cheap meats for the entire YT season is not extravagant. And I happen to agree.
FTR we are not poor, we are low middle class with crazy living expenses or "frum poor". The real poor are actually better off in this economy as they qualify for govt programs. But for all of you who think ppl on TS are living it up while you struggle, think again. And if you really need the help, just apply. But don't come on here complaining and discouraging others from giving them tzedakah. They are literally keeping thousands families from going hungry. |
I am.not fabricating things. I was referring (and said so in a prior post) about someone saying TS gave them 4-5 roasts, cases of chicken, sides of salmon, plus ground meat, stew meat et etc etc. For fewer people than in your family.
I don't have a problem with people getting TS. I donate to.mine.
I have a problem when those boxes are full of expensive extras I and many others would never ever buy. We don't serve red meat at every meal. We dont serve fish at every meal. Pretty much RH is the only time a year we do fish plus chicken because of the simanim. Why do you assume I have no idea how much YT costs? I work full time and yeah make YT too. We just don't do all the "musts" that some people have and then assume tzeddakah organizations should cover.
Even if we have a minhag to eat something we don't, even if we can't afford it. My great grandparents in Europe didn't have all of this so the minhag is not absolute or required. Chicken on Shabos wasn't always a given either back then. Tzeddakah should be for NEEDS.
If I can't afford a new outfit for me- I don't buy, even if it is an inyan to do so. BH not the case now for me but when DH was out of a job we counted how.many times we filled the gas tank. No extras.
TS also doesn't give to just anyone. They always say they have more needs than funds. Wouldn't it be better if 5 families got a single roast instead of 1 family getting 5? (Plus they don't give to the frum poor where I live, just the poor poor who get SNAP, WIC, Medicaid...). I wish they would give to those who are middle class but frum poor.
There are so many needed organizations that don't have funds - why should it be given so people can have roast?
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amother
Seafoam
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 3:41 am
If you want to argue semantics, everyone who gets a tuition discount is having tzedakah pay for their pizza / backpacks / milkshake / earrings / birthday presents. Because if they lived like total paupers, maybe they could afford to pay full tuition! Instead they are living in the lap of luxury (I.e. occasionally buying prepared food and getting a backpack they like instead of the $6 one from Walmart) and accepting tzedakah dollars for their tuition.
Perhaps Tomchei Shabbos and similar could just give the dollar value to recipients, but to avoid many issues they just provide boxes of food. That still means that the families can choose to spend the $40 they would have otherwise spent on flour and eggs, and either buy food that didn't come in their box, a bouquet of flowers, or pay off some debt. The right choice will depend on the family and the circumstances.
All of us consider mitzvah obligations to be non-negotiables, right up there with food and shelter. And just like there are different needs with food (celiac doesn't go away because you can't afford more than pasta), there are also different needs with mitzvos (I can't drop all of my minhagim because I'm poor).
It's hard, because we as a community would rather think that if you're poor you're doing something wrong (see! if you didn't buy flowers you wouldn't need Tomchei Shabbos) than to admit that frum life is literally unaffordable for far too many.
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amother
Candycane
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 6:45 am
Why should a person that needs tzedaka to make Yom Tov not be able to celebrate Yom Tov like you or me, or the way they were used to.
Also, there is a Halacha in tzedaka that if a person had wealth and now needs tzedaka you should give him tzedaka so he could live his life like he did when he was wealthy . Because for a person with money, losing it is much more painful and shameful than one who never had.
I think it’s the most beautiful thing that the Tomche Shabbos that provides all nice foods, even what some consider luxury items , like salmon.
I grew up on TS every Shabbos. But that food reminded us every week how poor we were. We were only worthy of week old cheese danishes , and stale challah rolls.
We were worthy of 6 onions and 3 tomatoes and a bottle of milk and one whole chicken for a family of 6.
That TS delivery made me feel shame . Shame I never felt before. And every Friday my mother sent us to the grocery to get food that felt b’kavodik to us for Shabbos. We got cholent meat, and Shabbos treats etc. Every week we would wait to get the pkg first and we would feel the challos to see if they were fresh. If not , the my mother froze those challos to use for French toast for supper one night and instead sent us to buy fresh challah for Shabbos.
When I met my DH, one of his big passions was TS. He was a volunteer who worked non stop for the organization. I made a comment to him that TS sends gross food and they are an embarrassment. He looked at me shocked.
When we got married he took me before Yom Tov to the warehouse and into the fridge and freezers to show me what they were giving . I was in awe. Meat, fish, chicken, veggies for soup , regular pantry staples and so on. That changed my view . That’s when I realized that TS in one city is different in TS in another . I have always felt the desire to donate to TS in my town now , where they give a nice Yom Tov delivery versus the meager and embarrassing few items they gave us when I was growing up.
I preferred to go hungry as a teen than to eat that old food. (We had enough old food in our home) . I am so grateful to the volunteer who delivered the TS delivery to my childhood home. His daughter was in my class and he put the two and two together. Every day his wife made a delicious tuna sandwich on fresh bread with sour pickle and sent it with my classmate to give to me. She always told me her mother saw how much I loved her tuna sandwich when I visited them, so she made me one every day.
THAT made me feel special. She made me the same thing she made her daughter. Not stale bread with a slab of peanut butter on it. She showed me I was worthy of a fresh and tasty piece of bread . I will forever be grateful to her for that.
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amother
Mistyrose
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 9:57 am
| amother Candycane wrote: | Why should a person that needs tzedaka to make Yom Tov not be able to celebrate Yom Tov like you or me, or the way they were used to.
Also, there is a Halacha in tzedaka that if a person had wealth and now needs tzedaka you should give him tzedaka so he could live his life like he did when he was wealthy . Because for a person with money, losing it is much more painful and shameful than one who never had.
I think it’s the most beautiful thing that the Tomche Shabbos that provides all nice foods, even what some consider luxury items , like salmon.
I grew up on TS every Shabbos. But that food reminded us every week how poor we were. We were only worthy of week old cheese danishes , and stale challah rolls.
We were worthy of 6 onions and 3 tomatoes and a bottle of milk and one whole chicken for a family of 6.
That TS delivery made me feel shame . Shame I never felt before. And every Friday my mother sent us to the grocery to get food that felt b’kavodik to us for Shabbos. We got cholent meat, and Shabbos treats etc. Every week we would wait to get the pkg first and we would feel the challos to see if they were fresh. If not , the my mother froze those challos to use for French toast for supper one night and instead sent us to buy fresh challah for Shabbos.
When I met my DH, one of his big passions was TS. He was a volunteer who worked non stop for the organization. I made a comment to him that TS sends gross food and they are an embarrassment. He looked at me shocked.
When we got married he took me before Yom Tov to the warehouse and into the fridge and freezers to show me what they were giving . I was in awe. Meat, fish, chicken, veggies for soup , regular pantry staples and so on. That changed my view . That’s when I realized that TS in one city is different in TS in another . I have always felt the desire to donate to TS in my town now , where they give a nice Yom Tov delivery versus the meager and embarrassing few items they gave us when I was growing up.
I preferred to go hungry as a teen than to eat that old food. (We had enough old food in our home) . I am so grateful to the volunteer who delivered the TS delivery to my childhood home. His daughter was in my class and he put the two and two together. Every day his wife made a delicious tuna sandwich on fresh bread with sour pickle and sent it with my classmate to give to me. She always told me her mother saw how much I loved her tuna sandwich when I visited them, so she made me one every day.
THAT made me feel special. She made me the same thing she made her daughter. Not stale bread with a slab of peanut butter on it. She showed me I was worthy of a fresh and tasty piece of bread . I will forever be grateful to her for that. |
The way that TS from your childhood ran should get a good reorganization. There is no reason to give stale and week old products.
I have no issue and said it before with boxes containing decent food. They should! Chicken, flour, eggs, milk, fresh vegetables, 0... even a treat or two like bakery cookies or lebens. My issue was when it went to the other extreme. Fancy foods that the donors themselves could never afford. Lots of fancy foods. There needs to be a balance between "decent bakavodik" and "extravagant". Whether in YT or the weekly boxes.
But my main issue is that as a society we have made things standard and "needed" that don't have to be. We each can list some we see. Things that shouldn't become standard so that someone feels it is less of a YT without it. Or that it is a new baseline and we keep raising the bar.
We should have boxes bring up the poor but not so high that the middle class (especially the "frum poor" middle class) now feels poor. And they need boxes.
But that driver and the tuna sandwhich... I envy his share in Olam Haba. How they managed to do it... makes me cry it is so beautiful.
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Busybee5
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 11:05 am
| amother OP wrote: | | I cannot afford food. It all goes on the credit card. If I didn't have credit card I would starve. And yes I'm still thinking about flowers. It's still yom tov and flowers makes yom tov feel nice. So I got flowers and it enhanced my yom tov a lot. I try to think what would Hashem want from me in each moment. I don't really know, but to me buying flowers seemed like and appropriate thing. I'm not talking about frivolous spending. I'm talking about something nice for you tov. Not a huge bouquet, not $40/lb cuts of meat not $300 dresses, not $600 jewelry. But something reasonable to celebrate yomtov. IYH with my enhancing of Yom Tov I hope Hashem will send more parnassah this year. |
Exactly. I bought flowers for £5 from the supermarket. If I'm anyway spending so much on food, what is another £5 to make my table yom tov dik, and nice for the kids too. The ami and my flowers made my yom tov (for me) everyone has different priorities. For my big boys and dh it's the food (yes meat!) the horrors. BH not on credit card but this time of year isn't easy.
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amother
Trillium
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 11:34 am
| amother Dustypink wrote: | | I think people are forgetting that yomtov is supposed to be a happy time. Chagim Uzmanim lsason. It's in the spirit of things if Tomchei Shabbos gives meat, chicken and lebens. They give it twice or three times a year during yomtov. Why all the outcry? Also, Bobbies place gives beautiful clothing that I can't afford to buy, but to begrudge other people getting nice things for yomtov is not a good middah at all, it's not even a jewish character trait...... |
Here's the intrinsic problem.
It's not being given out equally.
It's given to Chinuch, kollel, really poor, those who lost jobs. And many of these families also have other access- low tuition, food stamps,etc.
Last year my husband didn't have a job. The schools were reasonable about tuition. We got generous TS boxes.
This year, bh my husband has a job. But he had to start at the bottom and he's only making 55k. Yes he will work his way up.
But we got kicked off Medicaid and now have to pay 12ka year for insurance plus an additional 5k a year for copays and deductibles.
Each school is now insisting on tuition because he has a job and we're paying an additional 10k a year on tuition.
We are no longer eligible for Earned Income Credit and we won't be getting a significant tax return- we're hoping to break even.
We are no longer getting 800 a month on food stamps.
All of this adds up.
And this year, BH my husband has a job but we are so much worse off. No packages. No help. No meat. No clothes.
Why isn't there a insistence that we deserve meat for simchas Yom Tov. That everyone deserves meat.
Instead of giving 5 roasts (like we got last year) to poor and Chinuch families, why not give 2 or 3 and spread the wealth and Simcha.
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amother
NeonYellow
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 11:37 am
| amother Trillium wrote: | Here's the intrinsic problem.
It's not being given out equally.
It's given to Chinuch, kollel, really poor, those who lost jobs. And many of these families also have other access- low tuition, food stamps,etc.
Last year my husband didn't have a job. The schools were reasonable about tuition. We got generous TS boxes.
This year, bh my husband has a job. But he had to start at the bottom and he's only making 55k. Yes he will work his way up.
But we got kicked off Medicaid and now have to pay 12ka year for insurance plus an additional 5k a year for copays and deductibles.
Each school is now insisting on tuition because he has a job and we're paying an additional 10k a year on tuition.
We are no longer eligible for Earned Income Credit and we won't be getting a significant tax return- we're hoping to break even.
We are no longer getting 800 a month on food stamps.
All of this adds up.
And this year, BH my husband has a job but we are so much worse off. No packages. No help. No meat. No clothes.
Why isn't there a insistence that we deserve meat for simchas Yom Tov. That everyone deserves meat.
Instead of giving 5 roasts (like we got last year) to poor and Chinuch families, why not give 2 or 3 and spread the wealth and Simcha. |
Forget equal - it's not really given to the people who need it most.
It's the families surviving on beans and rice who should be getting that roast. Even if the income is at 250k.
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