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Ima_Shelli
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 Mon, Sep 18 2023, 9:10 am
| giftedmom wrote: | This
So much money spent on things that don’t matter. So much unnecessary pressure to impress people who don’t care. |
Except that suddenly when your kids are in shidduchim you realize that all the things you did or did not do to keep up appearances really seem to matter. I wish that weren’t the case but it seems to (at least al pi derech hateva) matter soooo much to some people. People who said “no” to girls from moneyed families who didn’t “play the game” vs people who said yes to girls from families who spent years practically going into debt to keep up appearances of being “bessereh menchen”.
I know there are exceptions, lots of them, but now I realize why people do this. It has a lot to do with your reputation in the community and how people perceive you.
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amother
Impatiens
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 10:07 am
| amother Alyssum wrote: | But it is. Putting aside private schools because that's a necessity - take a look how we live compared to the rest of the world. Our homes are designed with higher standings - expensive kitchens, costly furniture, and stocked with higher-priced items. Go browse Homegoods, and then go browse our comparative stores and compare. Look at our clothing, our dress is much more costly than the rest of the world and its not because of tznius. If it were only because of tznius, it would be marginally more and there's plenty of ways to finder cheaper tznius options. But our choice of style, quality (and or designer, oh and matching of course) significantly increases our standards. Look at our simchas - what we call 'average' is considered to be a rich event elsewhere in the world. We call summer camp and summer vacation a need, the rest of the world doesn't think so. The expensive jewelry we get for a kallah is not even a passing thought to the rest of the middle class world, etc.
We are so entrenched in our own world, we don't have an objective view of what's normal and what's not. I confess, I was of similar mindset. It took me getting a job in the outside world to realize how extravagant our lifestyle truly is. The middle class there, even the ones earning $200k+ don't do half of what we do - nor have the such mindsets either. |
This seems very community dependent. In the circles I am in (both yeshivish and Chassidish) this is not necessarily the norm at all. Not everyone has high end kitchens - most people I know actually don't - no costly furniture here at all, and mostly fake jewelry.
People I know shop in tottini, kidichic and even Childrens Place, not high end at all.
A takanah wedding in my community cost a little over $10,000 - very comparable to non Jews wedding cost - actually a lot lower.
And even with all that, our expenses are still not manageable. Add tuitions, housing costs, kosher food... it's way higher than even the median US salary.
It seems like you are living in circles where everyone lives rich (I'm glad for them, hope they really have the money) but there are other circles where it's not like that at all. And life is STILL unaffordable.
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Trademark
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 10:14 am
| amother Impatiens wrote: | This seems very community dependent. In the circles I am in (both yeshivish and Chassidish) this is not necessarily the norm at all. Not everyone has high end kitchens - most people I know actually don't - no costly furniture here at all, and mostly fake jewelry.
People I know shop in tottini, kidichic and even Childrens Place, not high end at all.
A takanah wedding in my community cost a little over $10,000 - very comparable to non Jews wedding cost - actually a lot lower.
And even with all that, our expenses are still not manageable. Add tuitions, housing costs, kosher food... it's way higher than even the median US salary.
It seems like you are living in circles where everyone lives rich (I'm glad for them, hope they really have the money) but there are other circles where it's not like that at all. And life is STILL unaffordable. |
Exactly that what was I was talking about. I said it's not inherently more luxurious, but obviously if people make choices that are not financially sound that's on them. I'm talking about how housing tuition and kosher food is what putting middle class families over the edge.
And this is not only a problem an our world, since inflation many many people are struggling and this is a major topic.
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amother
Rose
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 11:33 am
People want to live nice.
Not just have what they need.
Frum people have nice cars, expensive strollers, lots of jewelry, costly simchas etc.
Just look at the YT clothing situation!
As a community, frum people are spending significantly more on clothes, recreation, furniture, jewelry, and cars than an equally earning not frum family. (Many middle class families send their kids to private school- but even without tuition in the picture…)
Our gashmiyus is really beyond our means.
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amother
Tanzanite
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 11:34 am
| amother Impatiens wrote: | This seems very community dependent. In the circles I am in (both yeshivish and Chassidish) this is not necessarily the norm at all. Not everyone has high end kitchens - most people I know actually don't - no costly furniture here at all, and mostly fake jewelry.
People I know shop in tottini, kidichic and even Childrens Place, not high end at all.
A takanah wedding in my community cost a little over $10,000 - very comparable to non Jews wedding cost - actually a lot lower.
And even with all that, our expenses are still not manageable. Add tuitions, housing costs, kosher food... it's way higher than even the median US salary.
It seems like you are living in circles where everyone lives rich (I'm glad for them, hope they really have the money) but there are other circles where it's not like that at all. And life is STILL unaffordable. |
Fake kallah jewelry as well?
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doodlesmom
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 11:37 am
| Ima_Shelli wrote: | Except that suddenly when your kids are in shidduchim you realize that all the things you did or did not do to keep up appearances really seem to matter. I wish that weren’t the case but it seems to (at least al pi derech hateva) matter soooo much to some people. People who said “no” to girls from moneyed families who didn’t “play the game” vs people who said yes to girls from families who spent years practically going into debt to keep up appearances of being “bessereh menchen”.
I know there are exceptions, lots of them, but now I realize why people do this. It has a lot to do with your reputation in the community and how people perceive you. |
But that only means that someone with the same values as you will want you! Which is fantastic!
You don’t really want to be meshadech with someone who played the game…..(unless you’re part of the problem and you do….then you’re probably playing yourself).
* not you as in you, the general you…
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doodlesmom
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 11:45 am
| amother Impatiens wrote: | This seems very community dependent. In the circles I am in (both yeshivish and Chassidish) this is not necessarily the norm at all. Not everyone has high end kitchens - most people I know actually don't - no costly furniture here at all, and mostly fake jewelry.
People I know shop in tottini, kidichic and even Childrens Place, not high end at all.
A takanah wedding in my community cost a little over $10,000 - very comparable to non Jews wedding cost - actually a lot lower.
And even with all that, our expenses are still not manageable. Add tuitions, housing costs, kosher food... it's way higher than even the median US salary.
It seems like you are living in circles where everyone lives rich (I'm glad for them, hope they really have the money) but there are other circles where it's not like that at all. And life is STILL unaffordable. |
Not sure the community you’re in, but I’ll tell you about Boro Park.
The non high end kitchens people have isn’t from IKEA or Home Depot. It’s from Fabuwood etc… see the difference…
Our appliances are usually name brand and better quality…granted we use it a lot more…
Our furniture is generally more expensive- especially the ones we get while engaged…
We also usually buy higher end pots and smaller appliances, dishes, cutlery, linens, etc…
A takana wedding is 10k for night of…but setting up the apt is only something we do, gifting, clothing for everyone for the wedding week, kallah and choose “shtuffir” end up costing a lot more than that…
So we do have lots of corners to cut as a whole!
But yes the basics are through the roof!
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Ima_Shelli
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 4:19 pm
| doodlesmom wrote: | But that only means that someone with the same values as you will want you! Which is fantastic!
You don’t really want to be meshadech with someone who played the game…..(unless you’re part of the problem and you do….then you’re probably playing yourself).
* not you as in you, the general you… |
I wish. it seems like generally people who "don't play the game" can be at a disadvantage. at least that has been my experience, not just with families that also share their values but with getting names redt at all.
you do make a good point, though.
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giftedmom
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Mon, Sep 18 2023, 6:22 pm
| Ima_Shelli wrote: | Except that suddenly when your kids are in shidduchim you realize that all the things you did or did not do to keep up appearances really seem to matter. I wish that weren’t the case but it seems to (at least al pi derech hateva) matter soooo much to some people. People who said “no” to girls from moneyed families who didn’t “play the game” vs people who said yes to girls from families who spent years practically going into debt to keep up appearances of being “bessereh menchen”.
I know there are exceptions, lots of them, but now I realize why people do this. It has a lot to do with your reputation in the community and how people perceive you. |
I really don’t want my kids marrying into families like that. The mentality nauseates me.
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doodlesmom
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Tue, Sep 19 2023, 12:06 pm
So I just checked the 2023 income guidelines of child health plus in NYC and was shocked that for a family of 7 kids you can earn over $200k and still be eligible for child health plus with a premium capped at $180 for the family.
Last time I checked years ago, it was much less!
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mig100
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Tue, Sep 19 2023, 12:43 pm
| doodlesmom wrote: | So I just checked the 2023 income guidelines of child health plus in NYC and was shocked that for a family of 7 kids you can earn over $200k and still be eligible for child health plus with a premium capped at $180 for the family.
Last time I checked years ago, it was much less! |
Really?? can you show me the link. If thats true? that would be great for many people
180 for the whole family?
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