Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
Are you wrong?



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2005, 10:01 pm
I've noticed that it seems to be impossible to state a Halacha on Imamother. Everyone knows someone who has a heter, has a Rav who holds differently, or just plain gets insulted to hear that they are doing something wrong.

It's not just with Halacha- moral, ethical, and even medical truths "merit" the same reaction.

What's going on here? Is this some convoluted application of Dan Lekaf Zchus? Or defensiveness? Or what?

My personal opinion is that behavior can (almost) always be criticized. A specific person cannot be. It's OK to say that it's not right to wear x article of clothing. The exceptions (different Rabonim, heterim, "right" to struggle with an issue) do NOT make the rule. When I make such a statement, I am not saying that those who do not follow the Halacha are immoral, low-class, less "frum" than me, or even that they are doing something wrong! That's between them and Hashem. But the BEHAVIOR is wrong. I repeat, the behavior is wrong.

I mean, let's be realistic here. Episiotomies should not be routine in hospitals (sorry, just picking a random issue). The major medical players actually agree with the "naturalists" on this one. Does this mean that episiotomies are NEVER OK? No. I'm sure that certain situations warrant it. Does this mean you are bad if you got one, or a pushover? No, I'm not judging you- I don't know your situation, I don't know your doctor, I don't know the other considerations- for goodness sake, I don't even know YOU! But are episiotomies a bad idea as a routine procedure? Yes, of course. So why can't I say so without being lambasted for being insensitive?

Is this a difficult concept to grasp?
Is this particularly unclear?
Is this against some political correctness mannerism invented recently?

Why is it never OK to say that something is just, plain, WRONG?
Back to top

BrachaVHatzlocha




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2005, 10:11 pm
re: halacha
many times women assume what they've learned is halacha, when it's rather a minhag or chumra. Of course, they should keep it, unless they receive a heter. But another woman may mention that she doesn't hold that way.
They're both right.
Back to top

stem




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2005, 10:13 pm
I was just talking about this with someone, she felt totally horrible when she read on this site that a woman who's a nidda cannot touch her son on his upsherin day. That is a straight-out Minhag for some chassidim, and should not be presented like it's a halacha!
Back to top

chen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 04 2005, 11:42 pm
and sometimes what someone tells you is a straight-out bubbemeiseh based on somebody's belief that the way HER mother did things is the only correct way. when in doubt, CYLOR. and then ask him if it's a universal halacha or your minhag.
Back to top

TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2005, 11:45 am
stem wrote:
I was just talking about this with someone, she felt totally horrible when she read on this site that a woman who's a nidda cannot touch her son on his upsherin day. That is a straight-out Minhag for some chassidim, and should not be presented like it's a halacha!
stem, I just looked through that whole thread to see if I could find such a comment. and do you realize you are misquoting, and out of context?

You confused the discussion about "areinfirenish", or HACHNOSAH L"CHEDER,with the upsherin day, which was the beginning topic, but then switched to Hachnosah L'cheder . There was an honest, discussion or inquiry about these minhagim. Not personal.

You surely are not suggesting that we have to be POLITICALLY CORRECT on this website!

What I don't understand is that some of the extremely private, and sensitive material on this website doesn't make you bat an eyelash, it's only an intellectual, I.e. technical discussion of various minhagim that makes you see red!

Quote:
That is a straight-out Minhag for some chassidim, and should not be presented like it's a halacha


Coming from a different background, is no excuse to disparage minhagim of Chassidim in that straight-out way

or this roundabout way:

Quote:
I was just talking about this with someone, she felt totally horrible when she read on this site that a woman who's a nidda cannot touch her son on his upsherin day.
you mean hachnosa l'cheder day.

(not by saying of course that the minhagim are horrible but) that they make people feel horrible.

Quote:
and should not be presented like it's a halacha


Of course they are minhagim: Guess what?The entire procedure from start to finish of Upsherenish AND Hachnosa L'cheder are minhagim to begin with! So what do you mean by that?

Have you never heard of the precept "Minhag Yisrael Torah hi"?
Back to top

Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 07 2005, 11:55 am
Quote:
When I make such a statement, I am not saying that those who do not follow the Halacha are immoral, low-class, less "frum" than me, or even that they are doing something wrong! That's between them and Hashem. But the BEHAVIOR is wrong. I repeat, the behavior is wrong
.

Please, that itself is such a PC statement.

We judge others based on their actions and that's all. A person who behaves "wrongly" according to you, becomes a bad person, becomes more immoral, low class and less frum than you are. Otherwise, how do you judge people at all ? How do you judge criminals to be bad guys ? That is why there is really no difference in saying " your behavior is wrong" and "you are worse than me". Because if your behavior does not reflect on you as a person, what does ?

The only exception is when we talk to those we know personally and love pretty much unconditionally, such as our children.
Back to top

TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 08 2005, 9:27 am
Mandy, could you explain your previous statement in "English"? I just can't seem to catch on Confused
Back to top

stem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 08 2005, 11:20 am
SaraYehudis wrote:

You confused the discussion about "areinfirenish", or HACHNOSAH L"CHEDER,with the upsherin day.


Ok, but obviously I wasn't the only one.

SaraYehudis wrote:

You surely are not suggesting that we have to be POLITICALLY CORRECT on this website!


How about: I'm Lubavitch, and it's our minhag for a nidda mother not to touch her son on the day of his upsherin (or first day of cheder).

SaraYehudis wrote:

What I don't understand is that some of the extremely private, and sensitive material on this website doesn't make you bat an eyelash, it's only an intellectual, I.e. technical discussion of various minhagim that makes you see red!


I don't see red at all, please don't start with personal attacks.

SaraYehudis wrote:

Coming from a different background, is no excuse to disparage minhagim of Chassidim


Chas Veshalom. Please forgive me if it came out looking that way.
I was simply retelling a conversation that I had with SOMEONE ELSE. Personally, I had immidiately figured out that this was not my minhag and I moved right along.
Back to top

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 08 2005, 1:04 pm
stem wrote:
How about: I'm Lubavitch, and it's our minhag for a nidda mother not to touch her son on the day of his upsherin (or first day of cheder).


it's not a Lubavitch minhag ...

I think what Mandy is saying is: Who are you kidding when you say it's not the person you're judging, but the behavior? Most of us don't separate the two.

Well, perhaps the response to that is, maybe YOU don't separate the two, but Hisoererus does! And maybe many more people do separate the two than you think! And most practically, it depends on what the person did and who the person is, that enables us to more readily separate the person from the action.
Back to top

Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 08 2005, 8:15 pm
Quote:
I think what Mandy is saying is: Who are you kidding when you say it's not the person you're judging, but the behavior? Most of us don't separate the two
.

That is what I am saying and if hisorerus does separate the two, then I would ask her to explain what a bad person is, if she really believes that actions do not define people.
Back to top

TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 08 2005, 10:25 pm
Well then Mandy, I would say that hisorerus is applying what we learn in Chassidus or at least realizing that that is what we should do.

We learn that "even during the chet -" hoyso b'omnah ito"- she was faithful with Him"- the neshama remains pure and unsullied, united with G-d! on the essential level.

In Tanya ( beg. CH. 28 ) we learn that when a person has foreign thoughts during davening he should not feel dejected that he is on such a low level; that could be the case if a person only had one nefesh, but in reality there are two souls, the nefesh elokis, and the animal soul, which are each struggling to triumph over the other. Therefore he should strengthen his concentration, and even rejoice because:

the foreign thought arose from the kelipah (which abides) in the left ventricle, which puts up this struggle because during tefillah the nefesh ho'elokis increases effort and becomes strengthened, so the yetzer hora tries to overcome it.

IOW it's a positive sign that the fury of the yetzer was called forth, because it's equanimity was disturbed by the ground that the nefesh ho'elokis was gaining.
Only a true tzaddik would not have such a struggle going on inside.

In general then, this is how the Rebbe teaches us to view another Jew.
Whatever undesirable actions he/she may do, they are still Yidden, and created in the Divine image, with a G-dly neshomo.The undesirable actions are extraneous to a yid's true essence.

The story of the Frierdike Rebbe, who as a child was told by his father, the Rebbe RaShab why a Jew has two eyes: the right eye to look at his fellow Jew, the left eye for sweets and toys.

So when we learn Chassidus, we do judge things a little differently, probably way differently .
Back to top

roza




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 08 2005, 11:24 pm
Motek wrote:
but Hisoererus does!


no wonder, just look at her location Mr. Green

and I think both Mandy and Hisorerus are right. They are simply looking from different angle.
Back to top

Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 08 2005, 11:38 pm
Well, ladies. I guess we resolved this one, huh.
Chassidus says that there are no bad Jews. Only the actions are bad. Sad, then, how we did not know this during the whole long 17 page thread of the "what are you thinking when you show up to shul with a short skirt " thread.

This refreshing outlook would have really shortened that discussion.
Back to top

hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 09 2005, 1:33 am
I can't say I'm holy enough to ALWAYS separate the two, but I do try. And when I'm having a philosophical discussion about an issue, I'm usually successful.
Back to top

Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 10 2005, 6:48 pm
If someone is a murderer and druggie and does all sorts do you instantly think "he isn't horrible/bad/evil, it's just his actions" or do you think "that person ought to be hung drawn and quarterered and is such an evil $^%^&%" I know what I would think.
For small things you can say it is their actions that are wrong, but if they keep doing it and never seem to change that becomes who they are.
Back to top

Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Dec 10 2005, 8:31 pm
thanks for being honest Rivka, I'm glad someone got my point.
Back to top

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Dec 11 2005, 3:45 pm
Mandy wrote:
Chassidus says that there are no bad Jews. Only the actions are bad. Sad, then, how we did not know this during the whole long 17 page thread of the "what are you thinking when you show up to shul with a short skirt " thread. This refreshing outlook would have really shortened that discussion.


why? the thread was about bad actions and why FFB's do them
Back to top
Page 1 of 1 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Did I do the wrong thing?
by amother
12 Mon, Mar 25 2024, 3:07 pm View last post
My baby is "too good"-is there something wrong or am I just
by amother
18 Tue, Mar 12 2024, 7:24 am View last post
What's something that u know is wrong but still do?
by amother
27 Mon, Feb 26 2024, 8:20 pm View last post
Apparently I’m doing it all wrong or am I doing it right.. 13 Sun, Feb 25 2024, 11:50 pm View last post
Everyone tells me what's wrong with my child but
by amother
18 Thu, Feb 08 2024, 11:23 pm View last post