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A Gadol in the making?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:14 am
Bnei Berak 10 wrote:
In Hebrew a pair of scissors is misparayim מספריים
which is plural too Smile


It makes sense that scissors, and misparayim are plural words. Scissors have two blades that are put together.

My question was about the English word PAIR which denotes TWO. A pair of cows is only two cows. Where is the two in a pair of tzitzis? It makes no sense. Note that this problem doesn't exist in the Hebrew word for tzitzis. But no one ever claimed that the English language is sensical.
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amother
Geranium


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:24 am
amother Cinnamon wrote:
Ha my son refused to put on any Tzitzis so mabe your son is balancing things out? Very Happy


My son wore tzitzis at the age of 2, absolutely insisted on it. With the strings out. When I didn’t want him to wear it, simchas, other formal events... he would hide it under his shirt and tuck the strings in until it was too late.

Right after he turned 3 he refused to wear it for about 4 months.

Kids What
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puzzle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:27 am
"Here is something that can be readily confirmed to explain this linguistic oddity, although it may raise more questions than it answers: the word pants is a plurale tantum. The Oxford English Dictionary defines plurale tantum, which is Latin for “plural only,” as a “noun which is used only in plural form, or which is used only in plural form in a particular sense or senses.” Bifurcated items (things that can be divided into two), such as pants, fall into this category. Think of items that are usually referred to in plural—often preceded by “pair of” or something similar, even when there is only one item: pliers, glasses, scissors, sunglasses, tweezers, etc. So, pants is a type of noun that is used only in its plural form, even when there is only one item being discussed."

https://www.britannica.com/sto.....pants

This doesn't answer the question for tzitzis, but if I have to guess maybe it's that the word tzitzis sounds like it's a "plural only" word in English because it always ends with an "s". That only works with that nusach though, do those who say "tzitzit" also say "a pair of tzitzit"?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 9:58 am
puzzle wrote:
"Here is something that can be readily confirmed to explain this linguistic oddity, although it may raise more questions than it answers: the word pants is a plurale tantum. The Oxford English Dictionary defines plurale tantum, which is Latin for “plural only,” as a “noun which is used only in plural form, or which is used only in plural form in a particular sense or senses.” Bifurcated items (things that can be divided into two), such as pants, fall into this category. Think of items that are usually referred to in plural—often preceded by “pair of” or something similar, even when there is only one item: pliers, glasses, scissors, sunglasses, tweezers, etc. So, pants is a type of noun that is used only in its plural form, even when there is only one item being discussed."

https://www.britannica.com/sto.....pants

This doesn't answer the question for tzitzis, but if I have to guess maybe it's that the word tzitzis sounds like it's a "plural only" word in English because it always ends with an "s". That only works with that nusach though, do those who say "tzitzit" also say "a pair of tzitzit"?


This is very interesting.
But, note that all of the examples given for words that are preceded by "pair of" is something that consists of two elements that are joined together.
A pair of pants consists of two pant legs. (Which begs the question why we don't have a similar idea for shirt, since we have two arms that fit into the shirt. ) A pair of glasses has two pieces of glass in one frame.

In regards to the word tzitzis, in Hebrew the plural of tzitzit is tzitziot. One beged is tzitzis/Tzitzit. I think I'm going to have to stop referring to them as a "pair" . Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I think that term needs to be abolished.
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ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:01 am
With a mother like you he is for sure made of good stuff and has a lot of potential to be a gadol!!
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scintilla




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:07 am
I didn't read the whole thread but isn't it a pair because it has 2 distinct, almost separate sides? Unlike a shirt which is 1 piece?
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Tzutzie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:25 am
Loved this thread. LOL Your kids are so funny and so precious!
Can so relate to the multiple tzitzis and kippahs. The brachas for every bite if food.

My son loves to sing the davening while sitting on the toilet. Can't Believe It
No amount if explaining helped. So we compromised he'd flush right away instead of counting bis creations.....
He finally switched to regular songs recently when he went into kita alef. I guess the rebbe impressed on him the importance of keeping Holly things in Holly ways. LOL
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my mama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:27 am
amother OP wrote:
This is very interesting.
But, note that all of the examples given for words that are preceded by "pair of" is something that consists of two elements that are joined together.
A pair of pants consists of two pant legs. (Which begs the question why we don't have a similar idea for shirt, since we have two arms that fit into the shirt. ) A pair of glasses has two pieces of glass in one frame.

Snip


When people started wearing pants, as opposed to tunics it actually started out as two separate pieces of cloth held up by a belt. So a pair of pants actually makes sense
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amother
Mulberry


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:29 am
One of my nieces insisted on wearing full length skirts and no short sleeves from around the age of 3. My sister was not too pleased even though she was happy to have such a frum kid Very Happy
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:53 am
my mama wrote:
When people started wearing pants, as opposed to tunics it actually started out as two separate pieces of cloth held up by a belt. So a pair of pants actually makes sense


That's interesting. But it made sense even without that. Eyeglasses have two lenses and one frame joining them together. A pair of tweezers and a pair of pliers have two parts joined together.
But even if they aren't joined together, like a pair of gloves or a pair of shoes, they are still a pair if they consist of two elements.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 12:21 pm
My son informed me that Yaakov Avinu davens and wears a yarmulka, tzitzis AND underwear. Eisiv fights and wears a diaper. So I guess underwear is a requirement to be a tzadik.
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lilly_de




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 1:04 pm
Thanks for the thread Smile. I had a good time reading it. I can see a future gadol.
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Food




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 1:34 pm
amother Gold wrote:
My son informed me that Yaakov Avinu davens and wears a yarmulka, tzitzis AND underwear. Eisiv fights and wears a diaper. So I guess underwear is a requirement to be a tzadik.


LOL
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 3:22 pm
amother Geranium wrote:
My son wore tzitzis at the age of 2, absolutely insisted on it. With the strings out. When I didn’t want him to wear it, simchas, other formal events... he would hide it under his shirt and tuck the strings in until it was too late.

Right after he turned 3 he refused to wear it for about 4 months.

Kids What


That is hysterical. But you can't account for kids' idiosyncrasies....
Truthfully, you can't account for adult idiosyncrasies either. wondering They just look different when we grow up.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Nov 22 2023, 3:23 pm
amother Gold wrote:
My son informed me that Yaakov Avinu davens and wears a yarmulka, tzitzis AND underwear. Eisiv fights and wears a diaper. So I guess underwear is a requirement to be a tzadik.


Lol! Well, we can check that box. Underwear and 6 pairs of tzitzis.
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