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Forum -> Parenting our children
Kids who don’t take no for an answer
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Dec 05 2023, 5:02 pm
Very interesting eye opening answers here.
Dustypink I’ll try and keep you updated. I might start it after chanuka. Not a good time to implement new methods when their whole schedule is messed up. Also not understanding why you first wrote a rude answer and deleted, but we’ll leave it at that. What
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amother
Purple


 

Post Tue, Dec 05 2023, 5:15 pm
8 is not too young for anxiety or ocd. My kids with pandas who have ocd and anxiety are both extremely persistent and always nagging, and just like you describe, it's almost like they can't help themselves asking repeatedly even if they know the answer will be no. Because it's literally a compulsion. This is definitely one of the symptoms that gets better with treatment [and ramps up with flares].
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amother
Dustypink


 

Post Tue, Dec 05 2023, 10:47 pm
amother Valerian wrote:
Since my inlaws are like this I'm interested what are the benefits?


Benefits of what? This method over doing what clearly doesn't work for them? Or benefit of neurodivergent?
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amother
Dustypink


 

Post Tue, Dec 05 2023, 10:49 pm
amother OP wrote:
Very interesting eye opening answers here.
Dustypink I’ll try and keep you updated. I might start it after chanuka. Not a good time to implement new methods when their whole schedule is messed up. Also not understanding why you first wrote a rude answer and deleted, but we’ll leave it at that. What


Because I like to be nice. I am very passionate about this, and I believe that your previous way is keeping your daughter from thriving. So I took it way too personal and wrote basically what I sent in the end, but with a bit more edge...

I will look back on the thread after channuka
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 05 2023, 11:10 pm
amother OP wrote:
Thank you Dustypink. I agree that your method would work but I thought that it’s kinder to give an explanation. That’s why I’m doing it. I usually try to explain to my kids why I say no. With this one it doesn’t work but I’d hate to be curt with her.


You can say, there are 2 reasons.

Reason 1: explanation

Reason 2: because mommy said so.

If you are too little to understand Reason 1,
Then it's because Reason 2, mommy said so.

Explain this rule to her when she is NOT asking for something, so she's not too emotional to comprehend.

Don't explain more than once or twice.

Say I answered you and I am not going to say it again.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Dec 05 2023, 11:27 pm
"Because Mommy said so" is a good enough reason.
In a quiet time you can talk with her about possible reasons for your decisions, but her "but why?!?" Isn’t really a question, it’s a complaint/whine.
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amother
Dustypink


 

Post Tue, Dec 05 2023, 11:35 pm
amother White wrote:
Dusty pink I think I need to start a thread about my four year old kid.
What’s interesting is that I definitely talk too much. It’s just how I am. It would be work to talk less and this particular daughter needs more boundaries than the other ones did (I know because whatever I do naturally isn’t working) and I need to consciously set boundaries. I need to talk less. I have no clue how to set a consequence my other daughters at four didn’t really need a consequence whereas she is constantly “misbehaving”- slapping the other kids, making huge mess, telling me “no”….
My sense is that my parenting needs to change.
All in all to say I like your post!


Consequence of
hitting=hold her hand down firmly. "We don't hit" if she does it one more time, remove her from the situation for a little bit. repeat the sentence.

Mess=she has to help you clean up. She will spritz or wipe.
Try to not give her enough of anything to make a huge mess to begin with. Small portions and little bit of water or use sippy or non-spill cup. Once you see that she is getting bored with whatever she has, don't let her sit any longer, remove the potential mess or remove her from it.

Saying no=you go calmly over to her and guide her to do the thing. She might have a bit of a fit adn that's okay.

And example of this is if you tell her 'come here' she says 'NO!' so you say 'I'm counting to threeee' and while you count, you go over, take her hand and bring her to where you stood. what this is doing, is teaching her that there's no way to defy mommy/daddy because this is gonna happen anyway, even if she says no.

If she spills
do this: 'Come, I'll help you clean up the mess' and you get the product and a cloth. then you make it a non threatening experience to clean up. This is a consequence, not a punishment; when we spill, we clean. If she refuses, I sometimes hold her hand and make her do a tiny bit, and then tell her how good she was for helping me while I clean the rest.

do not do this: 'Do you want to help mommy cleeeaan?' and then when she says 'NO' get into a discussion of consequences and messes and people falling and ants....

You want to lead the conversation and activities. it is simply you guiding her and teaching her how to follow your lead. You are the only person in the world who cares about her enough to teach her how to be a mench. How to navigate the world. If she can learn the rules of the game now, she'll be better off playing later when the setting changes and the people are strangers. She will have an innate feeling of right and wrong, sequence of actions, and repercussions for bad actions/personal pride for good actions. In the end this way is making her more compliant with future interactions with other people and it' a tremendous chessed.
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Redbird




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:17 am
I have a son like this. I used to chalk his issues up to anxiety, and but I'm realizing that's not fully quite the explanation. Its that he has a really hard time feeling negative emotions. Disappointment, anger, fear, ect. are all too much and when he feels any of those things he goes right to fight mode.

Look up what Becky Kennedy has to say about Highly Feeling Kids, and see if it resonates.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:23 am
Another example happened today that has nothing to do with a no for chinuch purposes.
Dd: I don’t know division yet
Me: right you’re not supposed to yet. You will either learn it end of the year or next year
Dd: but I want to know it
Me: when you’ll be upto division you’ll learn it...
Dd: but I want....
Back and forth. I could’ve been curt and stopped her after the first time but she didn’t ask for candy. It was just a wish she was expressing. But it gets me so nervous how she doesn’t back down!!! Like a real pest. I know it’s not nice to call her that but there’s no better way to explain it.
I just want to add that she’s not necessarily a brilliant kid who would do well learning more than where they’re upto in class. She’s very average. It just goes along with her whole character of not accepting a negative answer.
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Redbird




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:36 am
amother OP wrote:
Another example happened today that has nothing to do with a no for chinuch purposes.
Dd: I don’t know division yet
Me: right you’re not supposed to yet. You will either learn it end of the year or next year
Dd: but I want to know it
Me: when you’ll be upto division you’ll learn it...
Dd: but I want....
Back and forth. I could’ve been curt and stopped her after the first time but she didn’t ask for candy. It was just a wish she was expressing. But it gets me so nervous how she doesn’t back down!!! Like a real pest. I know it’s not nice to call her that but there’s no better way to explain it.
I just want to add that she’s not necessarily a brilliant kid who would do well learning more than where they’re upto in class. She’s very average. It just goes along with her whole character of not accepting a negative answer.


Is it possible that she's not satisfied with any logical reasoning, because what she really needs is validation and to learn to be ok with disappointment?
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amother
Sand


 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:41 am
OP I think it’s ok to give a reason the first time but not to keep explaining and not arguing/negotiating with her.

My son who does this has adhd and anxiety. After two or three times, I tell him not to ask again and when he inevitably does, I don’t remind him about my reasons, I remind him that we’re done talking about it.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:44 am
Redbird wrote:
Is it possible that she's not satisfied with any logical reasoning, because what she really needs is validation and to learn to be ok with disappointment?

In this example, maybe. But when it’s something she really wants (like a candy) she doesn’t want validation. She wants the candy.
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taketwo




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:44 am
A child needs to know there is an adult in charge. The world is so big and scary. If you're reasoning with her and explaining to her your decisions you're putting yourself closer to her level and don't look like adult in the room anymore.

We're not saying you say it in a rude or harsh voice, but in a gentle soothing voice. "Mommy is in charge and knows what is best. You may not like it, and I'm sorry that it's hard for you, but what Mommy says goes." And rinse and repeat everytime she asks "but why?" Or "I want." It'll take a lot of patience from your end, but if you stay the adult in the room, and keep repeating in the same calm tone, eventually she'll learn there's no point in going on and on. She may get worked up, she may even end up in tears in the beginning, but stay strong and you'll he doing her a big favor, being her adult.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:45 am
amother Sand wrote:
OP I think it’s ok to give a reason the first time but not to keep explaining and not arguing/negotiating with her.

My son who does this has adhd and anxiety. After two or three times, I tell him not to ask again and when he inevitably does, I don’t remind him about my reasons, I remind him that we’re done talking about it.

I have to learn to stop after the first time. After she repeats the request I should say I already answered you.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:48 am
taketwo wrote:
A child needs to know there is an adult in charge. The world is so big and scary. If you're reasoning with her and explaining to her your decisions you're putting yourself closer to her level and don't look like adult in the room anymore.

We're not saying you say it in a rude or harsh voice, but in a gentle soothing voice. "Mommy is in charge and knows what is best. You may not like it, and I'm sorry that it's hard for you, but what Mommy says goes." And rinse and repeat everytime she asks "but why?" Or "I want." It'll take a lot of patience from your end, but if you stay the adult in the room, and keep repeating in the same calm tone, eventually she'll learn there's no point in going on and on. She may get worked up, she may even end up in tears in the beginning, but stay strong and you'll he doing her a big favor, being her adult.

Makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
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amother
Ivory


 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:50 am
amother Valerian wrote:
Oy my husband is like this! And his mom!
Pls teach her when young


What does it look like when an adult does this? Can you give some examples? Do these people usually get their way or does life teach them the hard way?

I feel like adults who don’t take no for an answer are successful in our culture.
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Redbird




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:51 am
amother OP wrote:
In this example, maybe. But when it’s something she really wants (like a candy) she doesn’t want validation. She wants the candy.


It still seems that what she is really fighting is her feelings.

There will always be things that she can't have. If she is not able to feel or process the disappointment she'll keep fighting for the "thing," so she doesn't have to feel that disappointment.
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aaa2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 6:55 am
Just thought I'd point out OP that not explaining as DustyPink said is sometimes kinder than explaining.
In this child it brings up anxiety and the desire to control when you explain. This can make it much harder for her. It's very hard as an adult to separate actions into different categories according to people.

In this situation if YOU were the child you would want an explanation.
When it's YOUR CHILD as the child they deserve to be treated as their own person- someone for whom getting explanations is hurting.

Not giving explanations can also be VERY NICE. There is absolutely no need to be curt. You smile and say kindly "The answer is no"
Child: "But whyyyy??? Is it because of A, then I'll do B, can I change your mind by also doing C???"
You (smiling): "No. I'm not going to change my answer. I love you- do you want cookies?"

This may not work the first 10 times but when your child gets used to you not changing your mind after a no they will feel a much stronger sense of security from you and will turn to you even more than before (talking from experience)

I totally understand how the mindset shift of treating your child differently than you'd like to be treated is so so hard but it's so important to do as a parent.

Hatzlacah!
(JUST FYI: I totally trust every mothers instinct- if this doesn't resonate with you - skip it:), It's just my 2 cents)

May Hashem grant you the strength and clarity to do what is right for your child!
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amother
Impatiens


 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 7:09 am
I have an eight year old like this. It can be very exhausting.

One thing that I've found that helps is saying "Are you asking because you're curious? Or because you want to change my mind? If you're curious, I'll be happy to explain it to you after you've done what I've asked. If you're trying to change my mind, I'm not going to. Please go do what I've asked."

There are times when she really just wants to talk about it, and I'm happy to have the discussion after she has listened. Listening might mean just saying "Okay" -- that works too. Like she's asking for candy, I say no, she says why not, I say if she's curious I'm happy to explain it to her after she says "Okay, I can't have candy." That way we're both on the same page, she's not having the candy, she knows I'm not changing my mind, but now we can have a conversation about why.

This has cut down considerably on the power struggles, and also on my frustration with her, which is a positive thing.

With the division example, I agree with the other posters. I would switch from explanation mode to validation mode in that case. She's not looking for an explanation. She's looking for someone to understand how annoying it is that she really wants to learn it and can't.

The two situations are similar, but need different approaches imho.
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aaa2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 06 2023, 7:12 am
I'll also add that it's a constant avodah to differentiate between

A. Teaching moments
moments that you can grab the opportunity to impart information to your child
B. Boundary moments
moments that your child is craving boundaries and needs a firm hand to keep them feeling safe


Last edited by aaa2 on Wed, Dec 06 2023, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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