How impt. do you think Education is?

rosehill

Thu, Feb 09 2006, 6:08 pm

Quote:

it's worth more Chinuch-wise for me to not go to college than to put my kids through school.

So who should pay for your kids school?
Should they go to public school so that you can avoid College?
And if you ask for tuition assistance, who do you think covers the Yeshiva's costs?
You're right, nothing in life is guaranteed, including having enough money to meet your tuition bills, but we can only work within the Teva that Hashem gave us. Meaning, if we are going to have large families, and expect to educate them in good yeshivos, we need jobs that pay well.

Crayon210

Thu, Feb 09 2006, 6:40 pm

Mandy wrote:

Salary is an important part of it, but it is also about using your brain. I would be somewhat disappointed if my child chooses a profession in which the physical is valued more than the intellect ( I.e- carrying boxes).

Why is the physical v. intellectual so important? I say, however Hashem wants to send down the brachos, let it flow, I'm not going to complain!

amother

Thu, Feb 09 2006, 6:50 pm

I respect that you are able to sacrifice and be so strong in your beliefs that you are willing to live with less to keep up your standards. But I sometimes get resentful that my DH and I work sooooo hard and so much is taken off for taxes, and people are getting all kinds of benifits from my tax money, when they are able to work, or work harder to pay their own way. I did not grow up in a city where this was the norm- as a kid I had never heard of food stamps etc. (not that some people there don't have them, and also not that we where wealthy- my parents worked very hard and struggled but it just wan't an option) so I have such a hard time understanding why in NY so many people feel entitled.

And about an education-
I think it's so individual- people need to be able to make a living and be happy with what they are doing. I think it's important to develop your skills at something so whatever you do, you can do it well. I guess that college doen't necessarily always lead to that though! The problem is when people have no direction. Especially a young man getting married who has no idea of how he will support his family. And I think women should also be encouraged to find something they are good at that can make money, but with having children, they phisically can't be the one making the money all the time, in my opinion. Also, it's really not fair to him either to have that stress when he needs to make a living when things hopefully get busy (children...) Why should he be stuck because no one ever encouraged him to get out and find something he is good at?(and something he is good at includes "Jewish Jobs")

Crayon210

Thu, Feb 09 2006, 6:54 pm

amother wrote:

What should the parents of a family of 10 do under certain circumstances? This was not the case where I grew up either, but then, people had less kids also.

rosehill

Fri, Feb 10 2006, 11:03 am

Quote:

a Rebbe who does not hold of college education

I'm curious, who treats your Rebbe and his family when they are Chas vesholom ill? And who prepared his contract when he purchased a house? And who prepares his taxes for him each year? I'm sure it's people who went to College.

Obviously College is not for everyone, and obviously great precautions need to be taken if you do go, but I would guess that your Rebbe does appreciate a College education under certain circumstances

BTW, Government healthcare is a misnomer. It should correctly be called "taxpayer healthcare". Again, it's those of us who are working and paying taxes that are subsidising this.

I'm sorry that paying full tuition is not a priority for you. Last I checked, it was a mitzva d'Oraisa to provide a Torah education for one's child. I hope you do get a job in the Yeshiva. But that is a strategy that won't work if too many people try it.

Crayon210

Fri, Feb 10 2006, 12:18 pm

rosehill-

I think the manner in which you've spoken about anyone's Rebbe is inappropriate and disrespectful.

Also, I don't think anyone on here promoted NOT working. It was just that some people don't want to send their kids to college, which does not preclude working.

Following a Rebbe's instructions, and trusting that one will have all the money that one needs, should be a priority over worrying about tuition. I don't think any posek would promote having fewer children to meet tuition costs, or say that one MUST go to college to meet tuitions costs.

rosehill

Sun, Feb 12 2006, 9:23 am

Quote:

I think the manner in which you've spoken about anyone's Rebbe is inappropriate and disrespectful

I'm sorry you feel that way.
I question whether this was an accurate characterisation of how her Rebbe feels. If it is, I would be genuinely and respectfully curious how he reconciles these inconsistencies.

I think it is inappropriate and disrespectful for able-bodied adults to send multiple children to Yeshiva with no idea and no plan for how they're going to pay for it, other than "Hashem will help".
In my (albeit limited) experience, Hashem tends not to help by sending said couple a winning lottery ticket, or planting an oil field in their front yard (although no doubt He could). In my experience, He tends to send a neighbor who is working very hard, and sacrificing time and money they could be using for their own family, who subsidises the Yeshiva.
Not only should these neighbors not be criticised for having gone to College so that they have professions that enable them to do this, they should be thanked.

Motek

Sun, Feb 12 2006, 10:08 am

although many of us admire "brain professions" there is the idea from Tehilim of "yegia kapecha" - eating from the work of your HANDS which can refer to manual labor, as opposed to intellectual labor so that your intellect will be solely devoted to Torah

Sages of the Talmud - R' Yehoshua worked with coal, there was a R' Yochonon who was a shoemaker, a R' Yitzchok who was a blacksmith ..

Quote:

"Alexander Zisha Frydman (general secretary of Agudas Yisrael in Poland, murdered in the Holocaust) became a shoemaker in the "Shop" of the German firm "Schultz" on Nowolifia 44-46. The foreman was Mr. Avraham Hendel. Many rabbis, rebbes and scholars were employed there. He resided in the dwelling of Mr. Yosef Krel (junior) on Nowolifia 59. He worked in the workshop for an entire day or an entire night, twelve hours straight. I visited him there. He was sitting in good company: Moshe Betzalel (the brother of Alter, the Gerrer Rebbe); the Piaseczener Rebbe Reb Kalonymus Szapira; the Sosnowiecer Rebbe Rabbi David Halbersztadt; Rabbi Alter; the Rapaport brothers – Mendele, Simcha, Aharon and Yaakov from Bielec.

They would remove nails from old shoes and study Mishna from a book that was lying on the knees under the tabletop. Reb Zisha Frydman recited the Mishnas to those gathered around. They were studying the Mishnas from the Order of Moed. In the evening when they came home from work, he taught an in-depth class in Talmud discreetly to youths. He also taught a chapter of Bible from the book of Jeremiah. Thus did one live, between fear and hope, as one drew strength from the Torah, "from the eternal wellspring". Zisha Frydman completed his book on commentaries on Torah and the Bible, called "Even Haezel". He showed me several thoughts that actually came to him at the workshop. I now understood how Rabbi Yochanan Hasandlar was able to be a shoemaker and a Talmudic sage simultaneously…

gryp

Sun, Feb 12 2006, 10:34 am

we've been thru this discussion many many times before about the Rebbe's position on college, not just for his own chasidim but for all Jews.
the famous sicha is actually from Parshas Bshalach- yesterday, and I reviewed it then.
in a nutshell:
the way a Yid earns his money is proved in the Pasuk: "V'atem Hadvaikim BaHashem Chayim Kulchem Hayom." (ill look that up later to see if I quoted it right, if not ill correct it.) the way you will have "Chayim" (life, parnasah) is if you are davek (cleave) to Hashem.
the way a non-Jew earns his money is what we see these days in the world around us: going to college- an education, a high-salary job, etc.

Hashem supports the Yidden in ways that are above nature.
Hashem supports the non-Jews in ways that are within nature.

now, Hashem says to the Yidden: I am ready to support you in a way that is above-nature, the way a Yid should be earning his money, BUT if you insist on earning parnasa like a non-Jew, then you insist, and I wont stop you.

the Rebbe goes on to say (unbelievable!): this galus is just like the galus of mitzrayim. the decree in mitzrayim is that all the males should be thrown into the Nile. the decree in this galus is the same: everyone has to be "thrown in" to the system of education/college/money. this is the Nile of today.
and in Mitzrayim what happened? the mothers had mesiras nefesh to try and save their young babies from the Nile. and today it is up to the mothers to save their children from todays Nile.

Crayon210

Sun, Feb 12 2006, 11:55 am

Thank you for that, RG.

rosehill-I don't understand where college fits into your equation. If someone doesn't have the money to pay for tuition, why does that necessarily mean it's because he didn't go to college? Plenty of financially successful people didn't, and many people who did go to college don't have two dimes to rub together.

I spoke to someone last week about modern avoda zara in America and she suggested two things: money and education. I had never thought of the latter, but it's so true. A piece of paper on the wall doesn't get you parnasa, Hashem does.

Mandy

Sun, Feb 12 2006, 12:05 pm

rosehill, I agree with you completely. The reason that yeshivas continue to exist is because people with education and degrees pay full tuition, the reason full tuition is so high is because quite a few people don't "believe" in college education and are very happy paying zilch for tuition. By the way, getting a job in yeshiva doesn't absolve you from paying tuition, at most you get some reduction, maybe half. Good luck.

Quote:

Hashem supports the Yidden in ways that are above nature

I think I will use this line when the next tzedakah case asking for money for food for his family or rent payments shows up at my door. This is what I will say : "Oh, you don't need my money, just daven a bit more and behave like a good yid and this won't be a problem. Clearly your parnassah problems simply reflect your lack of bitachon or frumkeit or whatever." I'll see how that works out- probably see a lot less txedakah guys at my door. Thanks for the tip !

Mandy

Sun, Feb 12 2006, 12:52 pm

The whole "Hashem will help" argument reminds me of that joke about the wealthy couple who is marrying off their daughter to a yeshiva boy. The father meets with the prospective groom and asks him all sorts of questions about how he plans to support himself while learning, how he plans to support his wife and future children, etc. The bochur can only answer "Hashem will help, G-d will provide, etc." The meeting is over and the gvir's wife asks how it went. The man replies that there is good news and bad news. The bad news is that the boy has no plans for parnassah and the good news is that he thinks that I, his father in law, am G-d.

Anyway, there's an opinion in the gemara that one who did not teach his son a trade, it is as if he taught him to steal.

Motek

Sun, Feb 12 2006, 12:58 pm

Mandy wrote:

I think I will use this line when the next tzedakah case asking for money for food for his family or rent payments shows up at my door.

you and Turnus Rufus

Quote:

The gemara (Bava Basra 10a) relates that the Roman general Turnus Rufus asked the Talmudic sage Rabbi Akiva, "If, as you claim, your G-d loves the poor, why doesn't He support them?"

Rabbi Akiva answered, "He is giving the rest of us the opportunity to avoid gehinom [by supporting the poor]."

Turnus Rufus retorted, "To the contrary, for this you deserve gehinom. If a king imprisons his servant and starves him, and another servant sneaks in and feeds him, does the latter not incur the death penalty?"

"That is the wrong analogy," Rabbi Akiva answered. "If a king imprisons his own son and starves him, and a servant sneaks in and feeds the king's son, does the latter not earn a great reward from the king? We are called `children of Hashem,' as it is written (Devarim 14:1), `You are children to Hashem'."