Camp not allowing fasting...

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amother

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:39 pm

On Friday I got a phone call from 11 3/4 yo dd, upset that the camp wont let her fast because she is not yet Bat Mitzvah and for safety reasons they dont allow anyone not yet bat Mizvah to fast at all. My daughter has already successfully fasted on 17 of Tammuz, and until chatzot for the passed few fasts. I spoke to someone at the camp who saw how upset she was about it, and she agreed to make an exception and let dd fast until chatzot. I spoke to dd and although at first she resisted, I convinced her to eat at lunch.

Today I get a phone call from same DD crying hysterically - till I calmed her down to be able to understand her my heart was completely broken. A higher up said that the woman who agreed to let her fast until Chatzot didnt have the ability to do so, and that DD HAD TO EAT. She told me to tell her to eat. I told her that I will tell her she does not HAVE to fast until chatzot, but that after hearing how upset she was about this I would not tell her she HAD TO EAT - camp director said something about me not following camp rules, and hung up on me!!! I was so angry I pulled on some clothes and was about to drive up to camp to bring her home..... DH talked me down....

What do you all think about this??? Should I have told my crying nearly bat mitzvah age daughter she HAD to eat on Tisha B'av???

greenfire

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:43 pm

some people actually have a minhag to start fasting 3 fasts before their actual bas mitzvah ...

I can understand the frustration but this shouldn't have to be a power struggle as it was only till chatzos right ... why should she be forced to eat or not eat ... where is the chinuch ...

hopefully this will blow over and some rational communication will come to after the taanis ...

amother

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:45 pm

OOPS.... that should read "past few fasts.." I never make spelling mistakes so you know I am upset...

Clarissa

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:50 pm

I guess the camp fears that they would be liable if somebody became ill from fasting, and that if one kid has permission to fast, other kids will want to follow suit, and those kids may not have permission to do so. They're probably afraid of getting into trouble with parents for whom it wouldn't be permissible, or with parents whose children would actually get ill if they fasted. If this is important to your daughter, I guess you should clear this issue before committing to a camp in future summers. I certainly don't think picking her up would be a good idea -- when this blows over she might start having a great time at camp, and you wouldn't want her to miss out.

GAMZu

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:51 pm

The most disturbing thing is that the director hung up on you. Confused

That is some temper. She should have stayed on the phone until the issue was resolved.

No, I don't think you had to tell her she must eat. You did the right thing telling her that she can if she wants.

Really, what difference do a few months make that they should be so stubborn?

Rutabaga

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:52 pm

Wow! I've never heard of a camp forcing a child to eat on a fast day. I can't imagine why they would if the parents allow their child to fast.

My family minhag is for a child to fast the 3 fasts before becoming a bar/bat mitzvah. They are sort of practice fasts that the child can break if necessary, but none of us did. It was kind of a way to prove to ourselves that we would be able to fast when it counted. For me, my practice fasts were 9 Av, Tzom Gedaliah, and Yom Kippur. So I fasted in camp when I was your daughter's age, and nobody had a problem with it.

I think you did the right thing. It's up to you (and your dh) and your daughter to decide whether or not she could fast. If she was 8 years old, then I could understand why the camp would want her to eat. But almost 12? Please.

GAMZu

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:58 pm

Also, if they are doing it for "safety" - how does turning 12 suddenly make it safe to fast? It's a halachic age and not a medical one.

Lady Godiva

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 6:59 pm

I know this won't change what happened but it's best to sign a note next time allowing your daughter to fast. The camp probably does not want to take responsibility for anybody getting sick. It was done rudely. I feel bad for your girl.

cindy324

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:02 pm

My DD's camp 's rule is that they do not allow any kid under Bas Mitzvah to fast. If any parent would like to allow their child to fast either half or full day, they have to send a signed permission slip to camp stating so.

I think that's reasonable. Come to think of it I hope my 13 year old is OK, she felt really ill after last YK.

Crayon210

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:12 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry that you feel so upset about this, but I think you were wrong. I think your daughter should understand that when in camp, you have to follow the camp's rules, even if they're silly. Or you just don't send her to that camp if it's a deal-breaker. Confused

amother

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:17 pm

OP here - we didnt know anything about the no fasting policy until Friday when my daughter called. It may not have changed our minds to send her there, but at least we would have known about it ahead of time and been able to prepare DD and not be blindsided with it.

Motek

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:22 pm

It sounds outrageous to me. If you, the parent, give permission for your daughter to fast, it's none of their business. If a signed note from you absolving them of any responsibility is required, so be it. But to insist? How dare they? By what right?

And to hang up on you?!

cassandra

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:23 pm

Did you ask them if you could sign a release?

mummiedearest

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:30 pm

I went to a camp with that rule. my family has the minhag of fasting three before bas mitzva. I just fasted without mentioning anything to the counselor. they don't sit over you to force you to eat, and if you're quiet about it no one's the wiser.

Crayon210

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:33 pm

amother wrote:

I understand that, but once you give her over to the care of the camp, they're the ones making the rules, and it's not really appropriate for you to be upset that they're enforcing their rules.

Clarissa

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:34 pm

Well, if one good thing comes out of this, it's that people here will know to ask about this ahead of time, when planning for next year. Those who really want their children to have this option can ask the question, and make any necessary arrangements. If the camp is unyielding because it's a rule, it's up to the parents to decide whether to apply.

I think it's all just a sign of the times. In today's society, everything must be spelled out, because everyone is afraid of liability. So we, as parents, need to be clear about our concerns, and camps need to be clear about their rules, well before the season begins. The camp my son has attended for the past three years sends this huge package out when you're applying. By the time camp starts, there isn't anything you don't know about every day of camp, and every little rule and regulation.

chaylizi

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:34 pm

still- hanging up on a parent is not appropriate. this applies even if you are angry & disagree with the parent's point of view.

Crayon210

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:37 pm

Of course it's rude to hang up.

Clarissa

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 7:40 pm

Hanging up is always uncalled for, but if tempers are flaring on both sides, people can sometimes lose their cool. Maybe she's just one of those administrators who flips out when people refuse to do things her way. That's no excuse, but maybe she's calmed down and you can have a better conversation next time you speak.

Motek

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 8:16 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

I understand that, but once you give her over to the care of the camp, they're the ones making the rules, and it's not really appropriate for you to be upset that they're enforcing their rules.

I'm surprised you take this approach with this particular scenario. I wonder what is meant by this being a camp rule. Is this rule writtten somewhere or was it made up when they discovered the girl is fasting? If it's a camp rule, they had to inform the parents about it, not spring it on mother and daughter. This is not how a professional operation is run. Hanging up on a parent is another indication of their lack of professionalism. And since they were uninformed about the rule, they have every right to be upset about it.

As some posters have written, their custom is to fast before the age of 12. If the camp is going to insist on a rule that may prevent girls from following their family's customs, that is certainly something you have to let people know about in advance.

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